Yes, and very obviously so. I'm here to debunk such ridiculous and obviously untrue conspiratorial things.
There isn't a shred of reality to support the notion that software is materially different than any other industry, and 'The Silicon Valley' starts with 'Silicon' - and then went through 'Hardware' - it wasn't software dominated until the 1990s.
I would go so far to say as Software is less involved than hardware.
Defence has almost always been a 'physical' industry and most defence contracts are for gadgets, not software.
Obviously - there's a ton of 'intelligence' going on that is software oriented, but they're generally not massive contracts, but bespoke stuff.
The NSA is not spending $100B on single procurement. They're relatively small.
(FYI - one middle sized defence program is bigger than CIA/FBI/NSA budgets)
Good point, but there's a very big difference between dual use tech that gets it's start in the military, vs building weapons systems.
Silicon, GPS, the Internet, nuclear power, most of rocketry and space etc., I think most would believe was worthwhile.
Building cruise missiles, or 'Civilian Monitoring Tech' - that's a different question.
I don't think that DARPA, the internet, or NASA etc. count as 'Military Industrial Complex', but Anduril of course does, and Palantir pretty much does as well.
That's 'new' for the Silicon Valley at least, it has mostly not been building 'defence tech' but rather general tech that has key defence use.
Ok you say rockets and space were "worthwhile" and missiles are "a different question".
But of course the space race proceeded from work on missiles. ICMBs are rockets that go high and fast and then happen to complete less than one full orbit.
And my understanding is that early ICs were for missiles because it was acceptable for the ICs to be very expensive in exchange for them being very light and small. Only a context that was optimizing for a tiny package (b/c extra weight also required more fuel) and was relatively cost insensitive would justify them at first. The point is building weapons sometimes _does_ turn into tech that can be used more generally. Does that justify the risk?
I mean there's a very clear difference between 'strategic tech' that's supported by defence (GPS) - and weapons systems (Spitfire).
And yes, some weapons systems are just ... 'weapons related' ... and the dual-use comes later, so it's more nuanced. Some of it more obvious (radar), than others (cruise missiles).
But I think it's important to characterize these things.
Because building 'GPS', 'LLMs', 'food preservation', 'vaccines' and 'off-road vehicles' is not 'arbitrarily different' from building 'cruise missiles' or 'F22 fighters'.
They are completely different things.
'Tech' that can be used by the military', and 'weapons' are not 'arbitrary labels'.
HN is the only place in the world where someone would try to conflate the two to make a point, I don't think it's reasonable.
The lines blurred, IMO. Boycotting the 8086 wouldn't hamstring ICBM development. Boycotting the microwave oven wasn't going to prevent radar complexes from being constructed.
Much of the modern pushback seems to come from the new blood companies. Microsoft, Apple, Google, businesses that deliberately blurred the line to obscure which side they stand on. These companies all collude with the US government to some extent, but their desire to hide that cooperation creates a rift in what they say and do. You could have boycott Google and Apple technology to protect Americans[0] from warrantless surveillance. You could have boycott Starlink to thwart Starshield[1] and future bids on the Golden Dome. Information on all of this behavior is classified because it is obviously upsetting and creates the potential for dissent. But hiding the behavior also creates a dam-burst effect once you tell people the truth, including employees. The Snowden files were a legitimate surprise to most people working in FAANG at the time.
It's upsetting to think that American NOBUS abilities[2] hang like a Sword of Damocles over the so-called Free World. When you import American technology, you also import the surveillance and opinions of the American government. It has developed in a new and insidious way that doesn't fully resemble what we saw in WWII or the Cold War, unique to the information age.
Microsoft Apple and Google have not blurred any lines, they are not defence contractors in any way.
They are very large tech companies which will invariably have some relationship with every industry.
Apple had some early contracts in defence, Google's early research grands were National Science Foundation, but that's not defence companies.
'Boeing' blurs the lines definitely - they are 35% defence contractor mostly civilian airline agency and didn't really start as military.
It's important to understand that every company of a certain scale exists a bit differently than others, and in some industries, like aviation, will be considered 'strategic' and they're going to work with 'national interests' in a lot of ways, that may involved some kind of defence contracting.
For Microsoft, the first and largest contract mentioned in the table just below the fold on that page is for an IVAS system. Microsoft had been basing this off their HoloLens system but was a distinct product (they weren't just sending over the normal HoloLens and expecting that they were gonna work in the field). This contract was then transitioned to Anduril. But just saying of Microsoft that "they are not defence contractors in any way" is hard to reconcile with the facts of having a large contract to _develop a new product_ for the military ... even if it turned out to never have been used.
I see what you're trying to say - but MS is not a defence contractor. The amount of business they do selling 'Windows' and 'Azure' to DoD is 100x whatever little tiny bit of co-research they are doing otherwise. It's not relevant to their business, that's just 'a tiny project that happens to cross into some field'.
I understand that technically, it's a project that can be used for defence, but if you say that MS is a 'defence contractor' - then you also have to say:
MS is an 'Investment Bank' - almost 50% of MSFT's Operations are financial. Their financial opts are bigger that most investment banks.
MS is a 'Healthcare Company'
MS is a 'Gaming Company'
MS is an 'Entertainment Company'
MS is XXX, YYY and ZZZ etc.
better: "MS is a Tech Conglomerate that sells Windows (OS), Office, Outlook, Sales and Ops SaaS, and has Bing some other services, with XBox as major subdivision. They have a major financial footprint, and also have research activities in other sectors."
Palantir is partially Defence contractor even if a minority of their business is defence, it's a strategic business line for them, and it's material to their existence.
> I understand that technically, it's a project that can be used for defence
No, it's a project commissioned by and built for defense needs. It's not that someone at the DoD saw how to creatively re-use an existing civilian project.
Yeah you’re describing normies. They are the norm. It’s in the name. People as described make up the vast majority of the population.
Nerds have always been in the extreme minority. Ignoring the influx of cosplaying MBA financing bros and industry hangers-on as tech became the place where the money is of course. The tech industry started attracting the normies as soon as it became almost as lucrative as finance, so these days the definition gets a little blurry.
This i did like 15 images just today, mostly just editing and fixing one of my wifes photos that she wanted the lighting and stuff leaned up with so i decided to test out 2.5... it did a great job, but that was easily 15 images 1 of which was the end result but all 15 count toward that figure, i'd honestly guess its more 1:100-1:500 that actually makes it outside the chatgpt servers
I assume the comment I am responding to was made in sarcasm, so I'm basing my response on that register, so apologies in advance if I have got this wrong.
I don't understand what is dystopian about this: With the exception of mildly elevated resource consumption to achieve the end goal (a nicer photo), is this not the sort of things that humans have been wanting and doing for as long as photographs have been a thing?
It was previously mostly unachievable for regular people to have their snapshots processed in such a way, but it feels like it's just making what used to be special mildly trivial. Anyone who has had their wedding photographed for the past 20 years has had the photos touched up on the way through. Any school portrait for just as long.
100 years ago people would dodge and burn photographic prints to improve them as much as the technology allowed. This is just the forward evolution of that old tale.
Maybe slightly odd is how anyone could possibly think I was being sarcastic. :)
I'm not attacking you here or anything :)
I'm just a bit shocked at how cynical people can be. The thought would not cross my mind ... and I'm a skeptic of many things!
There's a video somewhere of some people in Wyoming, riding horses.
All of the comments are young people shock of these 'boomers' committing 'animal abuse'.
I mean ... just ranchers riding horses.
People think that 'Ward Cleaver' form 'Leave It To Beaver' is some 'creepy twilight zone figure' ... when he's just literally a nice guy. Or rather the character is.
We're getting way to jaded!
So - I really mean it: AI is going to be mostly very pedantic stuff.
I witnessed the birth of computers and the internet - and while AI is definitely a big deal ... I think it's just going to feel like 'more computing stuff' in the end.
Computers started out for Science - then it became about video games, socialization, design, commerce, and of course 'gambling and porn' and all the 'same vices'.
Every step of the way there were people thinking it was being 'debauched' etc..
AI is going to be about the most mundane things, just as most technology is today.
It will be boring and in the background, and probably weird like a poorly designed, slow web-page full of cruft, but it will 'do the thing'.
That's also what my real life social circle does. My friends and family test out home reno/decoration ideas, and as I posted in another comment, my wife likes to visualize different layouts and changes to her flower gardens.
The 'environmental' consideration is much less than the argument over 'paper or plastic'.
That's going to be an issue of regulation and cost - not some arbitrary decision over 'whether I should make an image or just use text'.
Second - there are really not much in the way 'social or moral implications' for the most part.
This is a dystopian delusion that I'm hinting at here.
Folks are blowing this way out of proportion, and cynically so.
People now have 'automated Photoshop' and a slightly more power to express themselves. It's not going to change that much, and it's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. Mildly.
It has been possible to create convincingly cheap image misinformation for over a year (Nano Banana last August) but civil society has not collapsed. There are also open-weight models of similar quality and functionality without any safeguards.
Checks and balances in trust still exist, believe it or not.
The "society has not collapsed" goal post seems odd to me.
More and more people are getting caught up in weird echo chambers, extremist groups, and spewing misinformation. The amount of pure slop on Facebook, either for engagement or manipulation is so high, there is more fake content on FB than real content. The conspiracy side of me believes the CIA is deliberately forcing us against each other, but even if no underlying entity is behind this, the same outcome is happening. This is a byproduct of both Social Media & Generative AI.
In my country, Canada, the number one supplier of fake news and misinformation is the government news company, the CBC. It is an ocean compared to the fake news I've ever seen generated by chatgpt.
Yeah seriously, the cultural mindset is so damn kneejerk negative to everything right now. It's pathetic. This is an exciting time, and lots of good things are happening.
Maybe? Transformers and neural networks in general can do lots of interesting things for sure. But an image with the default ChatGPT aesthetic mindlessly produced by a generic prompt isn't one of them.
Seriously, it’s so fucking lame and boring to read these cynical takes. I might just make a HN comment that filters these people out, they’re ruining the site.
To be clear, I don’t mind a well-reasoned negative take on something, but much of the negatives takes I see here these days isn’t much better than Reddit, just hyper-exaggerated bitching and moaning about everything.
It is 100% not. You can create a whole lot of misinformation with an image. You cannot do that by visiting a website. To dismiss the concern with “people are having fun” is, at best, a naive idea and, at worst, a deliberately deceitful and malicious comment.
"which anyone can use to do, relatively easily" this is not true at all. Not anyone can use Photoshop, you need to first buy or get the software, then you need to learn how to use it, then work on the images. Whereas now you can just use Grok and immediately create pedophilia. Another deliberately deceitful and malicious comment
I hate it because I hate having to look at these AI generated images. In fact I want an internet where I have to explicitly opt-in to see AI generated content in general.
I was watching a friend stream a dead game lately.
That game was developed before generating images became widespread, and sunset as that "art form" started really taking off (game-as-a-service... probably partly reverse engineered and retooled with AI too). So during its lifetime, it was pretty much AI free.
I remember having been seduced by that game's art style at the time. It wasn't "the usual guys with futuristic guns and armor", it had some stylization as well, nice color...
Watching the stream, it occurred to me that it was in fact artwork from "the days before", in a way I hadn't been hit with until that point, even as a returning artist looking at pre-AI works.
"People came up with the concepts and developed and rendered them themselves", I thought to myself. Not in a "oh look, floppy disks. How quaint!" way, either.
Today I got stuck with a hairy frontend problem, which even AI couldn't help me with. Luckily, I managed to find a Medium article from like 2019. It was joyfully absent of 'comparisons that actually hold up' and 'X that is only a part of the picture' and nothing was load-bearing in there.
I forgot that once there existed a magical time when human beings used to write Medium articles by hand.
I would imagine a lot of it is mundane shit like getting ChatGPT to render the same room with different coloured walls or provide inspiration on plant pots. I have a decent amount of image usage and it's all things like this, not generating content I intend to distribute.
The weirdly narrow and cynical purview of your example proves my point.
It echos sentiments of painters, intellectuals and odd religious moralists and other rabble rousers who spent decades raving against 'tHe eVIL pHoToGRaPH' in late 19th and early 20t century.
People can now make more expressive images than they could before, which is generally a good thing.
Of course, people could always use new technology for negative purposes - and - people have been using Photoshop for decades already to make 'fake nudes' - this is not a new phenomenon.
None of this is even a very big deal. We can make images now much more easily, that's it.
> imagine being someone being blackmailed by photos created by ChatGPT Images
If anything, the fact that I know for a fact that I can, in 45 seconds, generate an image of any arbitrary person holding Solo cups at a party arm in arm with Vladimir Putin (to crib an idea from one of the demos) should make everyone less and less susceptible to blackmail in general - in fact, even if the source material is real! There was a time 40 years ago when a photograph's existence was considered proof of a fact - the existence of Photoshop-like tools made that into a weak proof, and the existence of genAI has made "a photograph" into a format that is known to be as malleable as a .txt file.
Whether we like that or not, no one will stop bad actors from attempting to abuse this technology, so democratizing its use does help people to understand how they work and make potential victims much less credulous.
this is an oddly dismissive comment that says more about the commenter then what is commented on.
generating an ai image is vastly more costly than loading a webpage…but still not that costly compared to most other things.
this is depressing in the same way content slop or fyp feeds are fun.
if you want a silly pic with ur kids, just pay someone on fiver. it will be only slightly more expensive and likely far more exciting for kids as they have to wait for the dopamine hit.
"if you want a silly pic with ur kids, just pay someone on fiver. it will be only slightly more expensive and likely far more exciting for kids as "
???
You mean to imply there's something 'more authentic' about paying $5 for a random Philippino guy to use Photoshop to mix-up some family photos with sticker overlays?
What are you even talking about?
On what level is that either more authentic, better for the environment, more novel ... of frankly better in any way?
That is 'not even an argument' - and so you're making my point for me:
People can now make images.
It's mostly for fun, some of it will be used professional, some Tweets will be a bit more visual - but that's it.
It's not going to change that much, and it's generally better on the whole for people to be able to create what they want.
People are putting this out of proportion.
Maybe I'm too old, but I've been around - this is not a big deal in the grand scheme.
>if you want a silly pic with ur kids, just pay someone on fiver. it will be only slightly more expensive and likely far more exciting for kids as they have to wait for the dopamine hit.
Or, y'know, learn how to draw, or accept that it's not exactly going to be Chuck Jones caliber stuff.
Yea, “fun”, sure. I’m sure none of those billions of images were used to lie, mislead, or cheat anyone. I’m sure none of those images were used to create fake news narratives, used in advertisements to bait people into buying fake products, or create misleading mockups of rental properties. Definitely not.
Nevermind the fact that the examples in OpenAI’s blog post are examples of creating images that have no plausible purpose other than to fake stuff that didn’t happen.
Yesterday my wife used ChatGPT to generate an image of our cat as a toilet, which was very funny for the both of us. She's also used it to turn him into a basketball getting dunked, a tsetse fly, a clown and a napkin. It's hard to say whether she uses it more to generate inside joke images about our cat, or to generate mockup plans and layouts for her flower gardens, but it is safe to say she does it all for fun.
It's a fundamental, cultural and systemic lack of concern for those issues.
An 'afterthought' that should be 'integral'.
That Gates did not realize that means it's 100% on him.
1000% actually.
He was struggling with the language of design and usability in 2003, not even realizing even the implications of what he was seeing (because it would require total rethink).
Like a cars coming out of the factory with missing parts ... blame it on the guy on the line?
No. Something is deeply wrong.
I really like Gates - but it's beyond shocking how these cultures work and how myopic they are.
I worked for a Fortune 50 - and it's pretty amazing to watch how an army of actually smart people with 'one eye' can be so competent many ways, but blind in others.
I don't like to put Jobs on a pedestal but obviously this is something he understood (even then with gaping holes).
This email was literally BillG sending an email to the people he holds accountable for this, pointing out to them that he believes his experience resulted from a systematic lack of attention to end to end user experience.
I’m not sure why you see this as evidence BillG didn’t understand that to be his job.
I have struggle to understand how someone could come to that conclusion, maybe I missed something?
The email is a 'rant'.
It's a 'list of broken stuff'.
It's not:
1) identifying underlying first principles of design or UX that have been broken
2) not identifying which parts of the system may have resulted in the negative outcome
3) not reference for either operational or cultural that were braoched or need to be address
4) not at all cognizant of systemic concern at all.
5) didn't allocate responsibility, hint at how to organized a response, what structural issues need to be in place.
It's actually a really bad an embarrassing lack of leadership.
It's basically 'user rant' - not what one would expect from a leader.
He 'made a list of complaints and threw them onto the org.' - who are obviously being 'reactive' and moving in a bit of a frenzy.
'Dear Leader, doesn't like how the picture frames are set in the office! Fire the picture framers, everyone get out your rulers and fix the picture frames'.
This is really common and it happens because people have this magical belief that the 'founder' or 'ceo' has 'special powers and insight' and then issues roll down hill among sycophants and yes men, trying to appease.
A good example of 'leadership' would start out with 'I take responsibility for this', hinting and the possible source of flaws, where in the process those things should have been caught, an attempt for accountability in certain areas (divide the concern), a requirement to convene on this issues and make sure everyone understands what's important. Especially and including the fact that anyone responsible for a product actually has to 'use it' aka dogfooding or else etc etc..
In 2003, Gates was no longer CEO; I think he was President of the Board and something like "Special Advisor"? None of the people involved reported to him, so he may actually correctly have felt he could not tell them what to do?--so he stuck to venting his frustration.
Exactly. bluegatty has great points for a CEO role but Bill stopped being CEO in 2000 three years earlier. The board and advisors cannot direct the company internally - this is by law. Separation of oversight and management. They can tell the CEO what to do but the CEO decides. Then they can fire the ceo if they don’t like it.
If the President of the board has an issue with how the company is fundamentally operating, they go to the CEO. If the CEO doesn’t understand or doesn’t prioritize the concerns of the board, then they get replaced.
He’s may not have been the CEO… but he was the boss of the CEO and represented all the individual owners of the company.
True but the separation of concerns is to put a wall up. Billg was relating his poor experience to the company he oversees. He is strictly forbidden from micro managing at this level. Eg "this is a problem" vs "fix the problem this way". Not his job
I’m not talking about micromanaging, I’m talking about relaying the information to the actual CEO (Steve Balmer I believe?) and ensuring they achieve the goals.
Even if he were still CEO, a message of, "This sucks", he does not have to explicitly add, "Fix it, please". That is well implied by the hierarchy. Your boss notes a problem, underlings try to correct.
I can see why you might think this but I think it is incorrect. Particularly because he's not in the hierarchy. Billg is not the boss at this point and has no meaningful effect on one's job unless you are in the top dozen execs and even then this is just an email about a user experience, it's not a command. Ballmer is your boss and the old man yelling at the cloud can keep screaming into the wind. Point: did anything change from this email? I don't think so.
It is helpful for me to understand corporate dynamics and how they actually work (or as supposed to) instead of a simplified version from outside. My brother is a CEO of a big company so I get to hear it from his side. Doesn't mean I'm right, I'm not the CEO.
[edit: softened the language]
[another edit]
Actually he isn't the CEO anymore. Private equity purchased the company years ago and he was made CEO from outside but in the industry. Eventually the PE people wanted to cut everything to make the company look good for a purchaser so that means high earners in the company have to go (this is a highly technical company with PhDs and researchers, etc).
But guess what? Those are the people that make the company special among other things. They demanded he fire some top people. He wouldn't because it would destroy the company's value. So they fired him and put in one of their lackeys to do the slaughter. They kept him on in a different role that I won't say because I don't want to reveal too much. Flash forward the company has not sold and is likely to have lost 50% of its value. I admire him but since they were going to be fired anyway shouldn't he have sucked it up and got a better price for the company? The PE people were total jackasses so working for them another day was poison in his veins.
> It's basically 'user rant' - not what one would expect from a leader.
It is absolutely a user rant, but it's entirely appropriate for a leader to call out "this is not okay; this is a garbage experience".
> who are obviously being 'reactive' and moving in a bit of a frenzy.
That was the intent. "Fix this." This was an email to a bunch of execs who are capable of driving the actual fixes. If Gates needs to hand hold them through this then they need to be replaced.
> A good example of 'leadership' would start out with 'I take responsibility for this'
This is vacuous corporate speak, the kind of message you send to shareholders to soothe them. This is not leadership.
> hinting and the possible source of flaws, where in the process those things should have been caught...
Again, if Gates needs to do this then everyone on the To line is dead weight.
1) sending the org into a reactive frenzy on the minor issue when the structural issue is the problem - is bad. He's also pointing them at the symptom and not the cause.
2) 'taking responsibility' is not 'vacuous corporate speak' - that's a terribly cynical view. It's literally the case - the leader takes respnosbility because they failed to set the conditions for the good outcome.
Gates failed to institute 'design and usability' as a fundamental aspect of the product and operational culture.
The email implies that some underling is to blame which is bad framing.
3) "hinting and the possible source of flaws, where in the process those things should have been caught.." - that's literally his job.
I don’t see an actual “reactive frenzy” here. I see that Gates started a conversation with the execs he believes are responsible for fixing this mess.
And again, these are execs being paid millions. They do not need to be coddled. You are acting as if Gates sent this to a bunch of junior engineers.
> ‘taking responsibility' is not 'vacuous corporate speak' - that's a terribly cynical view. It's literally the case - the leader takes respnosbility because they failed to set the conditions for the good outcome.
It’s absolutely vacuous to say 'I take responsibility for this' when you are telling a group of people they need to fix their shit.
Any CVP/EVP who fails at a job and then hears someone above them take responsibility for the failure knows they are about to be out of a job.
> The email implies that some underling is to blame which is bad framing.
If by underling you mean “highly paid executives” then sure. At some point people have to take responsibility for their jobs. This wasn’t a failure of some individual engineers. It was a collective failure of a group of executives to deliver a good experience.
> "hinting and the possible source of flaws, where in the process those things should have been caught.." - that's literally his job
It’s literally not. That’s not what CEOs of large corporations do and Gates wasn’t even CEO at this time. He was in an advisory role. His job was literally to give feedback.
> I see that Gates started a conversation with the execs he believes are responsible for fixing this mess.
I think the point here might be that what created this mess in the first place is the structure of the organisation, not the execs that are temporarily embodying it. It's actually quite clear from the follow-ups, there is nobody who can claim responsibility even for the website, never mind any vision or philosophy spanning multiple media and products.
Maybe Gates simply wasn't in the position of doing anything else at that time, or maybe his rant was a clever way to expose this exact problem. But it's pretty obvious that "will someone fix the website" doesn't sound like someone analysing and addressing the root cause of the issue. (However, it's also perfectly possible that this email is just a small part of a bigger conversation at different levels- inform the responsible and patch the immediate issue while more high level analysis and planning takes place elsewhere, informally).
I think the real point is that this is a random email that Gates sent to some execs sharing a bad experience with the product, and some people on HN are trying to take it as a much deeper thing than it really is.
A leader should be able to send candid communication to other leaders. A culture where execs are unable to communicate candidly to their peers or other high-level leaders is a toxic one. It would be absurd to insist that every communication needs to be candy coated and framed in terms of “I take responsibility, so here’s a path forward, and I’ll handhold everyone through it.”
This is not about candor, it's about framing and respecting what kind of power people have, who is responsible for what.
"Hey gang - I know I'm not Dear Leader anymore - and - I don't want to get in the way of your new Dear Leader, but I want to share with you a bad experience I had with this product.
A, B, C, D. E .. was really bad.
After thinking about it - I think much of this lays at my feet. In the Golden Era of MS we didn't think much about design, or 'Whole Product'. I have to take responsibility for that.
But these kinds of outcomes are really bad, and this has to be nipped in the bud now - and in the future.
I suggest this probably happened because Product and R&D criss-crossed here, the Release Managers and Product Marketing dropped a lot in between.
That there was a ball dropped here must be the responsibility at the VP/Executive level at very least, for not ensuring smooth handoff.
Furthermore - that this experience could be so bad means we have to rethink and extend our integration testing all the way to 'end user experience'.
Finally, I think you'll need to engender a culture of design right from the start - that's going to take 2-4 years and a different kind of thinking, that is not a fire that can be put out, or a process to be fixed. I'll have to lave that on the lap of the new Dear Leader.
It borderline infantilizing and buries the message under a bunch of saccharine. I can practically see the fake smile plastered across the face of the manager saying this. I would be insulted if my manager sent a message like this to the team.
Your version also took away literally all of the concrete detail, turning into a generic “it’s bad” that isn’t an actionable. It sounds like you sent it through an LLM.
I would also imagine that there are a lot of other emails flying around that are discussing the general pattern of concern while this is more of a drive-by honest review of a specific experience. This is the kind of blunt feedback that execs do not usually get about their products and probably need more of. This kind of blunt feedback from a respected leader can’t be waived away the way anecdotes from individual customers can.
What does this mean? Fire the VPs who failed to do their jobs? Say what you mean.
> ensuring smooth handoff
“doing their jobs”
> rethink and extend
“fix”
> engender a culture of design
This is a meaningless phrase.
> different kind of thinking
What kind of thinking?
> or a process to be fixed
Processes are how things get done! If programmers push garbage into the list of installed applications, that’s a process failure. If a product team makes a download available but it can’t be found on the main web site’s list of downloads, that’s a process failure. When things get done wrong it’s definitionally a process failure. Process also doesn’t flow from culture, they each exert influence on the other. Bad process will lead to bad culture as much as bad culture will lead to bad process.
I will reiterate what a sibling commenter already said: Nothing about this mealy mouthed corporate jargon liberally drizzled in passive voice comes across as candid. Effective communication does not look like this. Effective communication is assertive. It offers direct actionable advice, or asks direct questions which result in actionable answers.
---> First - the notes about language are completely glib.
It's perfectly acceptable for someone to use personal tone.
"> After thinking about it
Just say the thing."
"> nipped in the bud
“stop”"
... would be ridiculous feedback to give anyone.
It's perfectly acceptable for any writer to have some personalized inflection in their prose.
There's no misunderstanding or lost context.
The fact that you would even try to pick apart language at level is just weird.
---> Second - "Nothing about this mealy mouthed corporate jargon"
There is nothing 'mealy mouthed' about that prose, and there is no 'corporate jargon' in the note.
None.
The writer in that scenario mean exactly what they said - with some allowance for personal inflection.
That's it.
---> Third - "> engender a culture of design
This is a meaningless phrase."
No - it's not a 'meaningless phrase' - it means exactly that, in so many words.
Obviously, I'm not going to write full follow up paragraph on that in HN, the implication is direct.
---> Fourth - and most importantly - you entirely missed the point by trying to nitpick on arbitrary language someone wrote crudely on a HN comment.
The 'point' is to illustrate in quick and rough terms how one could be 'candid' with the feedback about a broken feature - and to also to frame it responsibly, to direct some feedback and as to where the responsibility might lie and where the process might have broken down, and then to more broadly indicate strategic concerns over culture, because there clearly is, particularly around 'user centric concners'.
Gates barfed some 'things that were broken' - instead of providing any contextualization at all - it was totally absent anything a leader would nominally provide.
You're getting caught up literally in prose and notions of 'process' which is besides the point. This is not about 'process' - it's about a leader framing feedback.
And FYI it was Satya that finally did 'change the culture' (although on different terms) to generally widespread acclaim.
Consider that three people have given you substantially similar feedback about your “candor”. Your attempt at a “personal voice” here comes off extremely fake. Compare your proposed “candid” message with the actual candor in your message at the top of this thread.
Rather than continue to dismiss the feedback, you should digest it and potentially learn something from it. Or not. It’s your choice.
> Gates barfed some 'things that were broken' - instead of providing any contextualization at all - it was totally absent anything a leader would nominally provide.
And yet you, simply by reading the email Gates sent, were able to confidently ascertain that the culture itself was failing here. You give too little credit to the recipients of this email when you imply that they can’t make the same assessment.
Your point could be made by simply adding the following at the very top of the original email: “Besides fixing the specific issues in this flow, we should consider how it got this bad in the first place and make changes to prevent it from happening again. I’ll support you and provide whatever you need.”
Done. Let the people who are responsible figure it out. They’re smart and capable, no need to baby them. You’ve made clear that you see it and it’s not acceptable, but you also understand that to drive through bigger changes, you’ll need to back them up and chip in when they need you.
-----> "It’s absolutely vacuous to say 'I take responsibility for this' when you are telling a group of people they need to fix their shit."
Totally false.
It's literally the opposite of vacuous to take responsibility for his failure to set up the culture and system wherein this kind of stuff would not happen - while at the same time starting a fire so that the work is done.
Allocating responsibility is one of the most important actions.
-----> he both 'started a conversation' and ... it's a frenzy.
Agreed - it's totally legit that he brought up the issue, and it doesn't have to be perfectly presented ... but that email chain is almost purely reactionary.
That is not people seeking root cause.
It's not people recognizing underlying systems.
It's a reactionary executive gaggle.
This is a 'put out the fire' type reactionary stuff.
The shocking thing to most people, would be how much of the world is actually run this way.
I concede that it's not horrible in and of itself - and sometimes a fire must be lit, but this is a frenzy. Not deliberative.
----> If by underling you mean “highly paid executives” then sure.
By 'underling' I mean anyone under him. The executives in this thread are acting like underlings.
You keep talking about “taking responsibility”. Unless the person taking responsibility is also taking action, which you aren’t even proposing, then it’s just words. It’s more sugar coating. “It’s not you, it’s me.”
> This is a 'put out the fire' type reactionary stuff.
After the fire fighting comes the postmortem where the systemic issues should be discussed. A fire is a great way to spur both short and long term action.
> By 'underling' I mean anyone under him.
I don’t know how you reconcile “accountability” with the idea that the a leader cannot expect members of the team to deliver. Is Gates the only person who has any accountability expected here?
Do you think personal responsibility travels uphill or downhill?
Each of the letters in CEO stand for a word with specific meaning, and when you put them together they tell you where the buck stops. It’s not a job for people who can’t take responsibility for their fuckups.
> Do you think personal responsibility travels uphill or downhill?
This is trying to be pithy but it’s not. Every leader from the CEO down has responsibility for their area of control and influence.
> It’s not a job for people who can’t take responsibility for their fuckups.
Neither is EVP or any other title that ends in “VP”.
The CEO ultimately owned The fact that installing movie maker was a shit show, but so did everyone in a position of leadership that contributed to that. Accountability does not mean everyone gets to point at the CEO and say “ultimately it’s their fault” as if that absolves them.
> 2) 'taking responsibility' is not 'vacuous corporate speak' - that's a terribly cynical view. It's literally the case - the leader takes respnosbility because they failed to set the conditions for the good outcome.
Tbh it seems like you're autistic and simply don't understand how such a "o take responsibility" message really looks like and what effect it'd have.
Sorry, but board room or top-50 professional discussions are ment to be a lot more meta. Bill using 500-1000 words to voice his concrete experience in downloading an app, with his directors immediately chiming in for fixes misses the forest for the trees. And Bill starts the quest for the one tree in his choice of words. It was disalignment in his organizational model and the CEO is on the line for that alignment. The happy install flow for moviemaker.exe - who cares… Just look at that thread! Response 3 is already “that’s not my turf”-ing. I’m not saying it’s easy to create a shift in a company of that size, it’s that they weren’t trying when the problem was yelling in their face.
(Typing this with a hot lap thanks to Windows update. The agony. Debian solved that 20-30 years ago.)
Most of the thread is lower level staff specifically trying to address the raised issues. We have no idea what conversations this triggered among the exec team about the broader strategic issues Bill raised.
It's actually funny that you're thinking they are 'lower level staff' because that's how it seems by their reaction, but those are literally top Execs.
That's really how these orgs often work.
'Dear Leader Is Angry' will set the whole org into a tizzy.
I've seen this countless times - 'XXX said it', and the littlest thing will get moved.
Often - this is good, it means the org is responsive to the direction of the founder, but it's 'abused' all the time. I think leaders forget their responsibility and truly believe that 'their whims' are essential.
25% of the US are looking at the insane things POTUS is putting out and believing there's some kind of 5D chess magic, when it's actually -5D - aka extraordinary bad leadership. That's the 'power of power'.
'Self Awareness' is probably the #1 superpower of a leader, because nobody is going to keep them in check.
Lower level than the former CEO And President of the board.
The point is this was not a round robin reply all buckpassing exercise with BillG and the senior corporate leaders still on the reply list. This is a specific downstream chain of email.
I’m not sure I understand what people here think the right thing to do is when the company founder emails a bunch of senior execs telling them they seem to have let things all go to crap.
Every single recipient on the thread was a Vice President, Corporate Vice President, or Senior/Group Vice President. Gates intentionally bypassed lower-level product managers and emailed the executive tier directly to demand accountability for platform-wide usability regressions.
If you think this is not missing the forest for the trees, please explain.
Becuase it was a typical MS user experience. MS was shipping their software on 25+ install floppies. Having an install fail on floppy 19 was a nightmare. Getting a fax modem that shipped with the PC to function could also be a problem MS would blame the vendor and the vendor blamed MS.
It’s not like his moviemaker experience was a rare occurrence.
It describes the culture of both companies at that time very clearly.
I think the difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Steve was a "product" CEO. He would bot only send that email, but in addition he would somehow oversee/sypervise those changes ALL the way until he was satisfied.
As for Jobs, I bought a Mac Mini last summer. I wanted to use iMovie to clip the edges off of a movie file. I clipped the edges, but was unable to discover how to save the resulting file, and gave up. Microsoft's Movie Maker has a menu item to save a file.
I use the Mini every day, but only via a tty window.
Apple used to have principled UX before designers got to innovation. There might be an argument that new UIs are better for people with no prior experience... if they did not completely change them once a decade or so.
yeah it's like one shortcut and a trim bar in QuickTime so that's the right tool for the job. iMovie isn't much harder but is a palaver with its whole pre-rendering thing just to export what should be a trivial edit.
Yes - this is a mind boggling design conceit of Apple that goes back almost 50 years.
They made certain design decisions a long time ago around a lot of things and that's one of them.
They 'conscientiously' designed the UX - which is great - it generally makes it better, but the problem is, when you make a mistake, the mistake is more ingrained.
We all know of 'Arrogant Engineers' thinking their 'Algorithm is more important than anything' - that 'save' thing is a design conceit, heavily instituted into the culture. The designers would look at you like an infidel for suggesting you know something they don't back in the day. Or even today.
I'm basically certain that Jobs himself will have defended that feature 1000 times over the years.
It's probably kept up like a religious ritual, a point of 'differentiation' and 'we're better here'.
Which is very different than a lack of operational rigour, it's where part of the system is overbearing.
"It's just the way we do it here" will be the justification for the next 100 years on that. And changing things that are ingrained is also very heard and risky. It's like changing the constitution, it's pulling a thread on the sweater.
There are quite a lot of weird 'Apple Way' things, most good, many bad.
There's a menu item. I believe it's File > Share > then you choose how (save to disk, email, export to photos app etc).
File > Save doesn't make sense because you would be saving your iMovie project. You're trying to export the final video from the project, not save it.
The problem was using a far too complex tool to do a simple job (and not understanding how the tool works). You can trim a video in Quicktime or Photos which directly manipulates the file.
File > Share is the same, just more user friendly language. I get it's a bit confusing if you've been using computers for a long time (it's certainly caught me out), but 'Share' makes much more sense. Especially because export/save to disk is only one of the multiple 'Share' options available.
Yes! It makes total sense to share with myself a Pages document as PDF! I‘ll promptly think of sharing if all I want to do is save/export a file in a different format. I think we can extend that helpful language to the entire OS! No need for a “copy” or “download” button, it’s all sharing, one way or another! Share share share!
"Export" means "save this working file in one of many formats, including possibly other formats that are first-class in third-party apps but not this app"
How exactly do you think Bill Gates at peak Microsoft is going to fix this given "it's 100% on him?" And do you think the guys on the line are the ones on this email thread?
This is immensely more "ownership"/initiative than the vast majority of middle managers at any tech company would willingly take to solve a minor UX/CUJ failure, that's surely literally why he started the email thread and including the ones he did, to model that behavior for the the other middle management bozos and to try to instill a culture of caring about their work/whether it actually accomplishes the intended goals.
"eak Microsoft is going to fix this given "it's 100% on him?" A"
? The CEO doesn't do the work, they assume and allocate responsibility.
It's 100% 'on Gates' because he failed to engender the right culture and process for creating the necessary outcomes.
"And do you think the guys on the line are the ones on this email thread?"
Yes, the execs on this thread should be (and probably are) 'on the line' - that's how that works, and it's why they are so reactive .. and finger-pointing.
The fact they are all finger pointing is a really bad sign.
Bill Gates was horrible CEO in current standard. He was distant and not reachable. He berated and bullied people. (+sexually harassed women). His personality personified Microsoft.
But he was very effective CEO because he knew technology, but business competition was more important to him. He was brutal against competition using all dirty tricks you could come out with.
The example of 'labs are optimizing for this' is the wrong thesis.
AI arbitrarily generating something of 'apparent sophistication' is not that hard - being able to produce it to spec that has invariable vague elements - and then being able to rationally modify it is the problem.
Look at image gen: you press the magic button and get a 'Pelican on a Bike' - but you can't just change the 'hat' of the Pelican. You have to press the magic button again, and you get a whole different Pelican on a Bike.
This is the fundamental conceit.
It's akin to the conceit that 'writing the code is the work' - but it's not - it's the research, the design, docs, integration and all that 'know-how' that has to 'sit somewhere' so the shape of the thing output can be adapted and moulded.
Arbitrary code output is not quite worthless but almost, it's the the '80% that means another 80% and then anther 80% to go'. It's like a nicer stating point.
The research capabilities of the AI, which don't make for nice demos, are arguably more powerful.
> Look at image gen: you press the magic button and get a 'Pelican on a Bike' - but you can't just change the 'hat' of the Pelican. You have to press the magic button again, and you get a whole different Pelican on a Bike.
I do understand what you mean and perhaps I am trying to treat it as a problem to be solved and challenge accepted but my first thoughts are if its an vector image like SVG (the famous simonw's pelican on a bike benchmark)
Then you could in theory have a layered approach and then just change the code of the hat so for example (IIRC) <--Hat--> Code. <-- Bicycle-->
So basically I am suggesting modularizing of concerns of areas so that you could have better autonomy over what exact thing you wish to change.
Though I imagine that you and I might be saying the same thing and you are suggesting that the crux of the argument is exactly that you need specific know how in reaching to that said modularity where you can best use AI.
When you might need the generation of the SVG as compared to image generation because you realize that your project might need the pelican changing lots of hats and image gen wouldn't be feasible but for that to actually say to AI, You might need to know in the first place that SVG or (HTML?) might be better use cases for this. Again, I must admit that I am not an expert in this so I can't absolutely comment on what the best thing for this particular use case could be and maybe that might be your point.
Have we arrived at similar conclusion or perhaps, is there more nuance to it?
On a side note: I actually once had a real use case of where I needed layered approach similar to Figma but generated through AI. preferably something which can just work through good ol chat app UI which could give an index.html or other code for this modification/layered approach.
Like recently there is https://bento.page which has been somewhat similar for this in some sense but for pdf's. So is there something different but for image-ish thing? If there is an expert lurking here, I would love to know the answer and gain some knowledge about it, thanks :-D
Yes, for things we can construct, and where we can train on the pieces, there's hope - software is a bit like that. Its not like 'raw' image generation, it's not a perfect example but the notion remains.
Yes, you're attacking my imperfect analogy mostly though - yes, there are techniques like masking but they're still not very good or precise. Particularly for images, the AI is generally not capturing the physics of the situation. Just presentation.
Please remember that NGOs are not charities. And the entire point of an NGO is to get around restrictions on what governments can do. I think most of the grips about NGOs comes from the selling of NGOs as charities which they very much are not. They are however, taxed in the same way as charities and donate significant amounts to political campaigns (mostly local and state level).
So they get around centuries old restrictions on governments, get taxed like charities and donate heavily to political campaigns. That set of properties can and should draw significant criticism. When you act like they are charities, it just makes you seem naive. If they were charities, they would call themselves charities.
" And the entire point of an NGO is to get around restrictions on what governments can do" - no, they can serve many purposes, and there are tons of things governments should not be doing.
They are entities that have a civic purpose, not for profit.
Yes, they can in some cases support political causes, that is normal.
You seem to have a narrow view of what 'community' is aka something is either a 'charity' or 'government' - the world is more complicated than that.
" That set of properties can and should draw significant criticism. " - no, the properties of fine.
They can be scrutinized like any organizaition: charity, private company, ngo, government, etc.
Yours is the naïve view of someone who has never looked at how the sausage is made. There are hundreds of billions each year flowing through NGOs. Where do you think this money comes from. Hint: its not your friendly grandma.
2) We have different regulations for different types of institutions
3) NGOs specifically exist to get around those regulations
4) A lobbying group (AARP) should have specific rules around how it can function. Lumping them with a professional standards organization makes it impossible to have reasonable anti-corruption laws. That's why NGOs exist, to make it impossible to enforce corruption laws. There is literally no other reason for it to exist as a category. We already have categories for lobbying groups and professional groups and charities.
"They are entities that have a civic purpose, not for profit."
If they had a true civic purpose, they would call themselves charities. The specific reason they don't is because an audit of their spending wouldn't meet the standards of a charity. Remember, charities can take government money. They just can't do it in exchange for a service. NGOs can. That's not about civic purpose. Its about different administrative standards. Standards that allow abuse. That's the entire point of them using the term NGO instead of charity.
You're failing to convey what an NGO is, and fail to provide any evidence that either NGOs, Charities or Public / Private companies are structurally more inclined to fraud.
NGOs are not charities, they exist for a different reason.
The American Medical Association is 'civic purpose'.
'next token predictor' is a limited mental model but it's actually much better than any others.
'pattern matching' is a better intuition that 'reasoning' even though I think nominally, using the term 'reasoning' is perfectly fine in that context. It's just a loaded word that brings too much to the table.
'It hasn't seen the pattern' is a better description of the limitations of AI because it really just doesn't generalize very well at all. The adaptations described in the article don't change that.
Those are mutations, not expansions of capability.
>> 'pattern matching' is a better intuition that 'reasoning' even though I think nominally, using the term 'reasoning' is perfectly fine in that context. It's just a loaded word that brings too much to the table.
Can I be a little pedantic? It's "pattern recognition" not "pattern matching". "Pattern matching" is what we do when we write a regex to recognise a sub-string in a bit of text. "Pattern recognition" is a subfield of AI that studies how to find patterns in data. For example the outcome of "pattern recognition" could conceivably be a regex that fits a large number of substrings in some corpus of text (essentially a regular grammar used to compress the text maybe). A regex is already a pattern, usually formed by a human (or an LLM these days) while pattern recognition starts without any patterns and builds them up from looking at the data.
It's harder to pin down "pattern recognition" because it's an ancient term that was once its own field, before it got absorbed into modern machine learning, and because there are countless approaches to it, quite unlike "pattern matching" which is basically just regexes plus a couple of other rarer things (like unification).
How about "outcome steering" as a mental model? During training it is optimized until it's really successful at producing code / terminal commands / words that make the compiler/computer/itself do something that ultimately completes a long time-horizon task that iswcurrently being trained.
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