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To me, this suddenly turned the discussion into a fascinating exploration and demonstration of different standards of truthfulness in marketing.

I still don't see how the original headline was not truthful.

It's as truthful and useful as "75.6% of humans who ingest oxygen end up dead".

That’s only wrong because it’s 100%.

Isn't it more like 93%? On the other 7% data is still inconclusive, they never died

Depends on if the study is ongoing

75.6% die is right, it's just that the other 24.4% do too.

Past results are not an indicator of future performance. YMMV.

I think it's less about what was said (it is truthful) and more what isn't mentioned in the title which leaves ambiguity.

I don't necessarily think it's intentional. For those with knowledge in the field I suspect it resonates the appropriate reaction.

For those outside of the field, I think the perception of what being 2 organs means does a lot of leg work in invoking a response which seems exaggerated, but is probably caused by incorrect assumptions of what the title is trying to convey.

I hope that makes some sense, I feel that was a lot of word vomit but I'm struggling to find the right words, it's somewhat meta



Noooooooooooo not XHTML

Though not ancient taoist, Finland has a strong shame culture so we also have lots of popular lyrics that seem to align with the theme. Another cultural pointer is Hal Sirowitz' Mother said.

* Sadetanssi: Kuvasi kaltainen *

you said, little boy the wheel of the world is best pedalled so softly no one even notices

and beware the day you look behind when speed no longer notices the pedal pressed to the floor

you said, that boy don’t let him loose he doesn’t instantly know which way he should be going

if somewhere comes the sound of good behaviour breaking if somewhere they are having fun without your permission

you wear your shame with pride when you look me in the face I am made in your image

you’d rather be ordinary than stunted in your growth well-behaved rather than torn inside

when you open the cupboard in the morning the skeletons are laughing you don’t know a single one but still they laugh at you

when at night you look into the mirror and see my face I smile at you softly and turn my back

I’ve made every mistake you only dream of making I am made in your image


These are the cultural projections previous western generations were built upon. My reading is that that is what’s happening, that is why they are so predominant.


What does that even means in this context? Is "western" now synonym for "people exactly like me"?


It appears obvious to me that there is a hegemonic world order that is more culturally western oriented that has driven globalisation. Your mileage appears to vary.


> cultural projections previous western generations were built upon

By that you mean American? Or German? Or French? Or Nordic? They were very different a generation ago.

Or like the fascist subculture? The pro-Russian one? The liberal one?


none of them specifically, but something they share on a different level.

life is measured by individual achievement, self-actualization through work, being ordinary is failure as you're supposed to present and perform. none of those cultures differ much on that, though maybe on how much you're allowed to express preferences vs. that.

why does this thread read as escapism to so many? because it's a cultural norm people are not aware of, and it gets violated.


> life is measured by individual achievement, self-actualization through work, being ordinary is failure as you're supposed to present and perform.

That is very American, even specifically American right wing masculinity point of view. Not generalized western one.

> none of those cultures differ much on that, though maybe on how much you're allowed to express preferences vs. that.

Oh yeah, they do differ on that exact point by a lot.


As you’re not providing any quantifiable argument either, it seems to me this discussion doesn’t need to continue.


Not sure at all you actually read the piece. Your responses about having a job or inconvenience or expectation seem entirely unrelated.

The text does not, for instance, encourage not having a job. It also does not encourage being nothing at all. Being nothing special is quite different.

Recommended movie: perfect days https://youtu.be/wqUT9hQd1XM?is=v1x85FdKOK_zfu60


Perfect Days is an amazing film which I recommend everyone reading to check out, I am not sure it's on streaming but available for rent / purchase on whatever platform you use (I bought it on Apple TV). I was amused to recently learn that it was an ad for Tokyo Toilet[0]

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tokyo_Toilet#Film


The link i posted is actually the full movie. yt-dlp?


Thanks for the movie suggestion, looks very interesting, will check it out. Also, the Pixar movie Soul has a similar message.


Another cultural reference to this idea is the song Heaven by Talking Heads. Nothing ever happens.

Annoyed that npc is not defined in the post. Non-playing character.


I feel it necessary to make a slight pedantic correction here, since we're officially defining it. It's Non-Player Character.


No problem I had no idea what an NPC is.


Just a second recommendation for this movie. It is very good. It encapsulates part of my favorite danish psalm which translated is something like “An average happy and productive life on earth”. There is some ambiguity in the message in the movie, and I do not think it recommend his life, but it a very interesting contrast to most peoples life


I often ask myself if i can go to a small town and live an anonymous life. Its my scoring system for personal pride/ego. Does such an anonymous life stop me from inventing things or think about stuff deeply. I don't think so,..


If you want to live anonymously you wouldn't want to be in a small town.


> If you want to live anonymously you wouldn't want to be in a small town.

Having grown up in a small town, I can confirm this. The smaller the town, the more it becomes true that almost everyone in town has either heard of you from a friend or relative, or knows you directly. :)


>Being nothing special is quite different.

Related, I would also recommend the book "The courage to be disliked"


> do nothing after work. why do you have to do something after work? do something because you feel like doing it, not because you feel like you have to.

Escapism. You SHOULD feel like you have to do some stuff. Our bodies are always aiming to relax, because conserving calories is an extremely effective survival method. We are hardwired to do nothing, in order to escape the burden of instead doing something.


> Escapism. You SHOULD feel like you have to do some stuff.

This word keeps coming up, coupled with things unrelated.

The OP isn't saying "do nothing". He's saying "do what you want to do". If he wants to study mathematics, that's neither escapism nor "doing nothing".


The extreme majority of people don’t have some secret massive project they want to do and are weirdly choosing not to. There’s only one way to interpret this.


Nope, they might just want to clock out from work at 5pm and go ride their bike until sunset without giving a single shit about anything but the fresh air. Or go home and walk their kid to the park. Or throw a ball around the yard with the dog.


Except you've got to cut the grass, weed the flowerbeds, wash the car, do the laundy, cook dinner, do the dishes, etc.


There’s a difference between things that literally everyone has to do as part of being human, and things that only “strivers” seem to enjoy- climbing the corporate ladder, “obsessing over customers”, polishing Powerpoint decks, working overtime to win that big account, picking that perfect background song to kick off the Zoom all-hands meeting, posting on LinkedIn about what having a kid taught them about B2B SaaS, etc.

No one here is saying they’re going to stop clipping their nails or feeding themselves. If that’s how you interpreted the article, you’re being uncharitable.


Or not tonight.

If I didn’t enjoy yard care, I wouldn’t have a yard or I’d xeriscape or gravel + trees, or something. Laundry’s kind of a drag, mostly the folding part. Most of the time I enjoy cooking and tidying up afterwards; when I’m not in the mood I’ll do takeout or throw something from the freezer in.

I’m not sure what you’re saying overall? Is it that those things you’ve listed are what stops people from having enjoyable lives where they do what they want?


They are just examples. Adults with responsibilities, especially with familes, have really moved beyond living "without giving a single shit about anything." The only adults I know who live like that are homeless. I guess they are the ultimate real-life NPCs


> Adults with responsibilities, especially with families

I’ll rephrase a little bit because “not give a shit” is maybe too flippant and what you’re saying is important context: if you have a family and responsibilities, framing it in terms of the article, that is one version of the NPC life and you’re going to be way better at it if you actually like it. If you feel like your constant responsibilities to your family are a burden and are getting in the way of doing what you want to be doing, that’s going to show up everywhere.

I was definitely raised with a “happy wife, happy life” mentality and a few years ago I smashed that whole notion to pieces for myself, not because it’s wrong but because the implementation I was taught was wrong. I understood it as “she’s going to want you to do a bunch of stuff that you don’t want to do, and the key to a happy life is to do it anyway.” As it turns out, in my experience, genuinely enthusiastic yesses and clear “no, not interested” is a way better approach. She trusts your yes way more if she trusts your ability to say no. Turns out that knowing she’s with someone who knows what he wants and doesn’t want, and has enough of a spine to say and act accordingly, is a key component to both “happy wife” and “happy life”.

If you’ve got family responsibilities and they feel like a heavy burden, it’s probably worth spending some time really reflecting on that and figuring out what needs to change.


None of this is a burdain if you don't let it

- cut the grass -> robot

- weed the flowerbeds -> once every week, or no flowerbeds if you feel it's not necessary

- wash the car -> idk I wash mine every 6 months or something. Go to the thingy, put coin, wait

- cook dinner -> or not. You could choose not to have dinner at all, or one of those fine premade gazpachos with a bit of bred and an egg

- do the dishes -> mostly putting things in a dishwasher and removing them every few days

The thing is, having a mind mostly empty of this kind of thing is its own reward. Maybe your car is less shiny, but your inner experience more so.


It's telling that you include totally unnecessary things like yard and car stuff.

I mean, sure, I wash the car every so many months because I take a road trip and can't get stuff off my windshield.

Washing cars is one of those absolutely pointless things people do that the article is alluding to. It is not supposed to be clean.


Those things were really just meant to be examples of the sorts of routine, daily things that have to get done if you have any responsibilities above and beyond your own immediate gratification. You might generically call them "chores." Just the routine, boring, regular responsibilites that are part of being an adult who is taking care of his life and family.

The guy who takes a bike ride after work until sunset has either done some planning and dealt with the chores to free up that time, or he's a selfish inconsiderate who's letting the other people in his life shoulder the externalities of his self-indulgence. Sure most chores can wait a bit, so some amount of spontaneity is OK, but it can't be a regular way of living.


Again, your comment only highlights the original post.

Cleaning the (exterior) of the car is something so many people do primarily because of judgmental folks like yourself. They don't care about a lot of dust on their cars, but they feel they have to because of what others think. The point of the post is to stop caring what such folks think. They definitely are not your friends.

His sentiment is a common one amongst much older folks. "Don't care too much what others think" is a fairly common advice they give. You'll put in a lot of effort and get very little in return.

Same goes for yard stuff. One of the things I looked at when I bought my house was how the neighborhood's yards were. Some were very "well kept". Others were clearly not. I bought the house because of the latter - it told me the neighborhood doesn't care that much, which is a good thing. Maintaining yards is one of the more wasteful acts in life (unless it happens to be your hobby).

https://blog.nwf.org/2024/04/why-we-shouldnt-have-lawns/

(My yard is actually well maintained, because I pay a guy to do it - if I can't afford him, though, it's going downhill).

> or he's a selfish inconsiderate who's letting the other people in his life shoulder the externalities of his self-indulgence.

Hey, if my dusty car bothers you - by all means come over and clean it.


Again, they were examples. Stuff has to get done. It doesn't specifically have to be washing the car or cutting the grass. Maybe it's helping kids with homework, or cleaning the toilets, or shopping for groceries, or taking your wife out to a nice dinner, or watching the kids while she goes to a movie with her friends.

I don't care about your dusty car. By all means don't wash it for me. But if your wife cares, and she's driving a dirty car because you go bike riding after work every day, then you might want to reconsider. Again, that's just an example.

I'm reminded of a quote, something along the lines of "if we all did the little things we know we are supposed to do, most of our big problems would take care of themselves"


As several people have pointed out, the original submission is not saying what you think it is. It is implicit that there are some things he has to do. He says:

> have a boring job. do nothing after work. why do you have to do something after work? do something because you feel like doing it, not because you feel like you have to.

Are you suggesting he has a boring job because he wants to have a boring job?

> I'm reminded of a quote, something along the lines of "if we all did the little things we know we are supposed to do, most of our big problems would take care of themselves"

The reason old people give the advice I mentioned is because they tried this approach and it backfired.

One of the major markers of my maturity was switching away from: "Well, if everyone does X, things would be better" to "What is the Y that will improve things the most, given that we know not everyone is going to do it?"

Having a system that only works well when (almost) everyone plays nice usually fails. Search instead for robustness: What system works well when a decent percentage don't adhere to it?

There's a reason communism lost.


Most of these obligations are self-imposed


Most people's "secret massive project they want to work on" is their family


Yeah, that's not living an NPC life. Nobody is talking about that when they call someone an NPC.


>There’s only one way to interpret this.

obviously not.


If everyone would be ready to jump in and help you with some revolutionary project you should really bother to figure out what that project is going to be.

They are not ready to help because normal life is designed to be absurdly complicated, time consuming, constraining and draining.

The irony is that the solution is for people to take up massive projects that address the many angles of needless complexity [again]


> There’s only one way to interpret this.

In any context, this is about as trivially false as any non-tautological statement can be.


> You SHOULD feel like you have to do some stuff.

Gregor: It would be nice to do something.

Sam: We are doing something. We're sitting here, waiting.

"Ronin", 1998


Sitting sometimes is good, sitting always is not.


Not the OP, nor the quote from Ronin state that one should always sit


I do not mean literally sitting. The article encourages complacency (metaphorically sitting around all day) which I disagree with.


"All day" and "always" are your words, not mine, and not those of the article's author.


I'm not quoting the author's words but their mentality, which is clear to see in their post.


You can't quote a mentality, and you're not a mind-reader. You're putting words in the author's mouth, and then arguing against them. Saying it's "clear to see" is just asking others to find your evidence for you.


It's just someone drawing conclusions based on what the author chose to write, which is common and fine.


Drawing conclusions is fine, if they're traceable to something on the page. This one started with "always" and "all day," which aren't in the post, and when that was pointed out it moved to the author's mentality. I can assign anyone any mentality I want, and it's impossible to prove me wrong.


No, they are my conclusions of what they said, which I have assumed is clear to see for others too. You are the one taking this simple interaction way too literally.


Reading someone's words as written isn't being "too literal". With a blog post, as with this thread, it's actually the only thing there is to go on.


You're not understanding metaphor and I'm not sure at this point in the comment thread I could explain it to you either.


Or maybe people like to stare at the clouds while herding sheep. This is just bro-science half-baked evolutionary psychology bullshit.

Personally I enjoy listening to the birds with a book in my hands.


Your body is, maybe, but we're not all the same. Making my body sit still and do nothing requires sustained, focused attention; action is the comfort state, and idleness the burden.


Meanwhile, my idleness is so ingrained that sometimes I can't even make myself do the things I WANT to do, like load up a game that I've been wanting to play.

And I'm just tired...all the time. I do nothing and still I'm exhausted.


Do you know why? It might be worth figuring out. For me is is mild ME/CFS but for you maybe not (a good tell for CFS is if doing any exercise at all e.g. 1km walk makes you feel rough later. Not delayed muscle soreness or a stitch but more like a flu say).

So many other things are possible like iron, thyroid, sleep apnea, ADHD, depression or burnout, long COVID, tropical illness. Maybe more.

Finally it is totally morally OK not to be a 100% productive worker bee. A "cure" is not necessary but might be worth rabbit holing if you desire and have the energy.


FWIW, I've been there too. One thing to realize is that action precedes motivation. The idea is to train yourself to do things you _don't_ want to do.

You have authority over your body. You can tell it to do things it doesn't want to.

You can walk into your bathroom and take a cold shower right now, on purpose. Your body doesn't want to, but it will yield if your mind tells it to.

In fact, doing that will switch up your state into a different one, which is half of the work needed to feel better.


Energy begets energy. Sloth begets sloth. It's a simple calorie conservation thing. Why power up the body to 80% when it'll only need 10%?

This isn't the answer for everyone, but for 90% of people, it moves the needle in the right direction.


That is pretty typical of depression, especially if you can't make yourself do activities you normally would enjoy or you stop feeling as much enjoyment from them

Unfortunately I have no advice for it but I wish you good luck. We're all struggling lately


Call that conserving energy. Contrary to commonly-held belief, calories are a very ambiguous concept.


tell that to someone with an eating disorder.


> Not sure at all you actually read the piece.

On my HN!? Surprised pikachu


Don't be patronising. I am pretty sure he has read the article because I agree with him, and I have read the article as well.

Surprised pikachu :OOOO


You agree with him? Even the boomer coded armchair psychology? My comment isn’t even in the same realm of patronizing as that.


How is this coded to baby boomer? Honest question; I want to understand the post-war generational perspective.


Guessing, but i suppose he might be referring to the implied-as-given duty ethics tone of the parent post, that easily comes across as an obligation to be blindly guided externally by norms.


Came here to comment on it being fascinating how xml has survived here and thrives on this front. Even in react syntax, in some sense. Natural fit?

As happy user of qt desktop framework, not sure in what sense it’s dated.

Not sure how qwt relates to this tho? https://qwt.sourceforge.io/

Making coherent ux with it still seems much easier than in qml, it has the right constraints and visual editing it is reasonably lightweight, unlike qml studio. Of course it has its flaws too but UX wise it is still hard to find an equally mature cross platform toolkit.


Also see: black and white or false dilemma fallacy


Does this make the vegetarians not exist?


I wasn't aware others besides fairphone do repairable phones! Any experiences of this?


the irony is that the scratch your own itch mindset also explains why indieweb struggles to grow.

there’s nothing wrong with building software for yourself. but if your stated goal is giving everyone ownership over their online identity, then usability stops being marketing and starts becoming part of the mission.

good ux isn’t selling out. it’s removing accidental complexity so more people can benefit from the ideas. otherwise you’re not building an alternative to big platforms, you’re building a club for people who enjoy configuring web servers.


Why does it need to grow? Not trying to be a curmudgeon here, I'm just trying to explain the philosophy because I think it's totally alien to some people. And I mean actually this HAS grown. Just pointing out that as far as I still know, guys like Aaron and Tantek are still doing their thing, scratching their itches, being indie, and the framework is there if anyone else wants to also scratch their personal itch.

What it isn't: a service working on perfection and maximizing consumption, as for example a commenter (Andrea Zanchetta) seems to expect. "What they built isn't suitable for me" simply isn't a relevant statement. You can build the thing you want, or have a nice day.

The point of these movements is that people are doing things for themselves, not for you, and not for the mass market. They are generally quite friendly to other people who create their own things. They are not doing it however to engage a consultant, a collective, a central authority, or pursue market share. They're just being themselves and making. Opinions that aren't backed by creating your own are just not really part of the picture and that's OK. We don't need to respond to the collective zeitgeist. We don't need to listen to all the opinions of other people online. We can just make and appreciate it as its own reward.

Occasionally these people get sponsored, and then you end up with miracles like the Linux kernel. Most times they don't and they just tinker and they're happy. It's all good.


ownership requires a bit of toiling to be meaningful, though. If everyone can have something, then nobody has it because it stops being something to be had


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