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Where is the "Don't switch" option? Because as much as I hate that Facebook bought them, they're part of what I would call "critical social infrastructure."

Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company.



Well, I don't know where parent is located, but here in Brazil they are pretty much right. Everybody has WhatsApp... it's assumed that if you have a phone you have WhatsApp. A lot of financial transactions are conducted by doing a bank transfer and then sending the receipt via WhatsApp. The schools send essential messages to parents via WhatsApp. During lockdowns, stores were taking delivery orders via WhatsApp.

What's more, several cell phone operators' plans include unlimited WhatsApp, but only a few GB of other data... meaning when your data limits are reached you can still use WhatsApp for the rest of the month, but not i.e. Signal or Telegram. That makes is rather hard to convince people to switch.

So yeah, pretty damn close to critical infrastructure. I'm still going to delete my account and see what happens, but unlike the siblings here I can't disagree with parent, at least for Brazil.

[Edit] When I delete my account I'm going to lose old conversations, but that doesn't bother me anymore because I already recently lost them once when I switched from Android to iOS... WhatsApp has no way of keeping your history in that case. And otherwise there's really no friction to deleting an account, since you can always recreate it.


I like to think the problem is that "the nerds" have failed the rest of the people. People used to listen to us about computer stuff. Then computers became usable without us. Then smartphones arrived. We gladly were relieved of our obligations, but also of our influence.

It's too late to go back. People are already used to the trade-offs, convenience rules above all. People may be "sort of concerned" about privacy, but they shrug it off. If privacy was high-value, any privacy-conscious competitor would've taken the market by storm.


I think it’s simpler. Boycotts don’t work at an individual level. I have been boycotting nestle for decades. Can’t say they’ve become less evil. That’s because the marginal effect is negligible for them and strongly negative for the individual (assuming you’re a fan of Kit Kat’s).

Network effects amplify the marginal impact on the individual, because they lead to a monopoly with no true competition. Sure, you can leave whatsapp for signal, but you can’t talk to that community group on WhatsApp from signal. From an individual’s point of view the market power is an absolute monopoly.

The only solution to these problems is organising to the level of a mass boycott, or regulatory intervention. The former is impossible because too many people don’t care about the company’s behaviour (not because they’re ignorant, they just don’t care) and the latter is slow and a very hard and unfun pursuit for campaigners.

Nothing we say to non nerds will be of sufficient magnitude on an individual level. It’d have to be collective action.

Personally I’m far more worried about Facebook undermining democracy right now. That’s sufficient reason to shut them down.


I wish the EU would force messaging systems to also support interactions with XMPP or other similar open standards.

There's nothing in their way to expect such a thing, except the lobbyists.


Interoperability enforcement may become part of the EU Digital Markets Act.


If the GDPR is any indication, WhatsApp could just choose to stop offering its services in the EU.


That would seriously break the network effect and eventually kill them off. Skype, Yahoo Messenger, etc got popular because they where free and easy to use. However, the market is really fickle and network effects can kill stuff off really quickly.

WhatsApp is already DOA in my circle of friends, it might come back but the odds aren’t great.


The WhatsApp network effect is strongly tied to borders though. Almost no one uses it in New Zealand for example, but a lot of people use Facebook Messenger but it isn't completely dominant like WhatsApp is in some places. I wonder if it ties back to countries that have good value cell phone plans? Even the very cheapest plans here come with unlimited SMS and it's been that way since smartphones were first taking off.


I think you're understating the strength of weak connections. If I have even one friend who's not on Whatsapp that I want to stay in touch with then I'm going to download another app. If there's a group chat with this person then everyone in that group is downloading a second app. And then second degree and third degree connections get affected too.

Getting out of the EU would be a massive blow to any established social media company that depends on network effects. It doesn't matter as much for smaller companies that are still growing (eg. early Facebook still managed to grow by only offering services to college students).


Which would be great IMO


too good to be true.


That’s the point.


problem solved


Why would you want your government to mandate how technology works?

Sounds like a recipe for disaster and the perfect way to stifle innovation


Is it not reasonable to demand interoperability for one of the main methods of communication in the entire world?

Forcing a specific standard is problematic, but it would be reasonable to ask any communication service to provide a fully documented and public API with features and access equal to the features and access of the official application.

Random nerds make integrations to whatever application/protocol is in vogue, business still gets to have complete freedom in where their take their API and thus their product.

---

I would even go as far as to say that every web-service should be machine-consumable in that fashion, but that's beyond the point.


My problem is not demanding it, as users, it's enforcing it with laws.

If users don't want that, they should be free not to have that.


The problem is that the users who couldn't care less drive the decision.


They probably shouldn't mandate "how technology works". I certainly wouldn't vote for that.

However, I think that public services (paid for by taxes) should be open and accessible. That is, the government should mandate certain properties ("it should be open") and not certain implementations ("it should use this specific protocol / app").

Another commenter gave the example of Brazil schools sending parents important information via WhatsApp.

Now I'm not against the schools doing that if it's one of multiple options and if the parents have an actual choice. I think the government should mandate that at least one open choice be made available, without necessarily detailing said choice.

In my view this wouldn't stifle innovation. If you come up with some new communication app that's better than anything else, if it's open and many people pick it up, there's no reason for the schools not to use it instead of the older / inferior option. This would also allow schools to choose one among several open solutions according to their particular needs.


“One System — One Policy — Universal Service”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment?wprov=sft...

"the promise of mail delivery [helped] grow the nation and economy instead of serving only existing communities."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_Service_Act?wprov=sfti1


I think it's a different problem - mail delivery requires a series of entities interacting with each others (think about a network of mailmen).

Also, private mail exists and it's definitely useful.

Digital messages are usually built on top of the internet (which would have similar problems) and every service can be used across the entire network.


Really? So I can reach my cousin via Signal, even though he is on WhatsApp?


Let's rewrite this to illustrate a point:

Why would you want a small, self-interested, unaccountable group of private investors to mandate how technology works?

Sounds like a recipe for disaster and the perfect way to stifle innovation

Depending on the particulars of your government, perhaps it looks more appealing now.


Because innovative != ethical! Hopefully it would stifle innovation that depends on tracking users and platform lock-in. I think there would certainly be space for innovation beyond that, possibly with even better conditions for competition as it would be easier for users to move between platforms.


What if as a user I'm happy to get a free service and be tracked?


Governments exist in large part to solve problems of the form "all individuals are incentivised to take actions which, when universally taken, are detrimental to the commons".


I am not sure it is a problem for most people though, if anything I believe most people would not like the alternative.

If the choice is between being tracked, which results in many things being free (as in beer) with otherwise almost no practical visible consequences for most people (different ads?), or having to pay for each and every service but no tracking, I think you would face a huge backlash if you forced the latter.

A solution could be to have free access if you accept tracking and pay otherwise, but I believe this is illegal under GDPR.


Who do you think that allocates frequency spectrum? Imagine if every mobile phone company wanted to lock its users by operating on a specific frequency.

Imagine if Hollywood or TV studios had any saying over Digital TV standards. Streaming would never exist and we would be used to a "pay-per-view" model forever, with mandatory and built-in DRM.

This is not about enforcing how technology works. It just ensuring that no monopoly can occur. Common standards don't stifle innovation, closed ones do.


We would have been much worse off if governments, or governmental bodies like the UN, allocated IP addresses rather than a private anarcho-like entity.


How does allocation of IP addresses related to pushing for interoperability of communication protocols?

If your analogy was something about governmental bodies was worse than private entities when pushing for a standard network standard, then you would have a point. But unless I am deeply wrong, TCP/IP, GSM, LTE, DVB, even FM radio and PAL were standards that only became dominant after governmental bodies sanctioned as standards and no one misses AppleTalk or Novell's IDP because of "government meddling".

Even still, the argument is not for killing private protocols or stopping private companies to innovate and develop new technologies. It's "just" that these innovations should be made on top of open standards instead of displacing them. Don't forget that Google Talk and even Facebook's messenger started on top of XMPP. They closed purely for business reasons, not technical ones. Had the FCC told them "do whatever you want with your network and your client, but anyone speaking XMPP should be able to communicate with your users", we wouldn't be in this mess.


I generally agree with this sentiment, but sometimes I think mandating cooperation between walled gardens is the only way to help consumers. Take healthcare for example: Epic, Cerner, Athena, etc all have NO incentive to build any interoperability into their products. It greatly benefits them to create walled gardens and wall-off hospitals and healthcare institutions from other institutions that use their competitors' software.

It took Congress to mandate open standards and to spell out that healthcare institutions must offer a public APIs to patients. We are only now starting to be able to download health records from hospitals as a result of this despite it being technically possible for decades. In fact there are still many patients that are required to request stacks of DVDs containing their health records, and this is their only option.

Obviously this is more a commentary on how shitty healthcare in the US can be, but also a good example IMO of how sometimes government intervention in technical standards requirements can greatly benefit consumers.


Market competition doesn't work for natural monopolies, and network effects mean messaging is one of those. Governments should regulate as necessary to ensure free markets for competition, which means aggressive antitrust enforcement and giving natural monopolies the choice between opening up enough to allow competition, or nationalisation.


Forcing interoperability means the apps need to actually compete with each other by being better - rather than just by being the biggest incumbent. Restrictions and requirements can boost innovation.


Because deployment of technology is a policy decision. And policies are what governments are about.


Also if XMPP would be possible, the data privacy problems would persist. For many people it's a problem that FB reads all their messages.


The EU cannot force anything. It would be enough for the company that provides WhatsApp to not have any business in the EU (today that's FB, it could be a spinoff tomorrow).

The only, weak, solution would be to force the EU ISPs, on an European level, to block FB. Blocking on itself will not be easy (technically speaking) and good luck to have a consensus on that among our countries.

I completely fail to understand why many US companies, operating on US grounds care about GDPR at all. I would not and, please, sue me. Even the ones that block access from EU are overreacting.


What do you think the differences between modern boycotts and Rosa Parks bus boycott are? Why are modern ones so ineffective in comparison?


Rosa Parks was a militant activist and part of a large activist network that was consistently staging public acts in defiance of Jim Crow segregation. This is misleadingly left out of most folks’ intro to her most successful action.


My school system was always big on emphasizing that there were pre-cursors to Rosa Parks (like Claudette Colvin), but they didn't have the connections that she did to make it happen.


Another factor is that the black people that were mainly affected by the segregation were the primary funders of the bus system. Their boycott was incredibly significant to the bottom line.


As sibling said, organisation was there, but also I think most people would feel very strongly about that issue, where here we are a minority.


When employees want to have more say over their working conditions, they organize. If users want to have more say over the product conditions, is there an opportunity to organize as wel?


Eh, it's not like "the nerds" can build a better product in terms of UX anyway, and definitely can't market it better.

Besides, who says "the nerds" are trustworthy anyway? They keep arguing among each other about which operating system or programming language is best, and why should we take their advice when software security vulnerabilities keep being discovered?

Not disagreeing with your point - it's become too easy to just randomly click "agree" on any TOS and trade away your privacy/security for convenience - but don't make it an "us vs them" type of thing. To me, this is purely corporate interest being prioritized ahead of public needs because most politicians either have no spine or answer to lobbyists more than the common person.


> Eh, it's not like "the nerds" can build a better product in terms of UX anyway, and definitely can't market it better.

Um, the original WhatsApp company was pretty much run by nerds, I thought, who made a product with UX so good they organically built a user base so large that FaceBook paid $16 billion for the company?


The service even cost money. A chat service for which you paid money to use. That was actually the argument why a lot of people used it, because "if you're paying for it, you know that they don't have shady business practices"

The only thing that surprises me is how long this change took. I expected them to do this when they removed the subscription.


Wasn't it only after the first year? That meant you could try it for free which is huge for adoption.


Then one of the whatsap co-founders initiated the Signal Foundation! See "2018–present" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%28software%29


$19 billion according to wiki :-)


"The nerds" tend to think logically and extrapolate without regard for reasonableness, precedent, or social norms. That makes us pretty bad at a lot of things (and we blow a lot of our credibility that way) but, it turns out, pretty good at predicting how corporations will abuse technology.


What’s wrong with ‘wall’ or ‘irssi’! ;)


I'd trust most nerds over most salesmen, but hat's what people do by clicking "I agree". Don't deal with the devil.


Kind of want to agree, but you're comparing the extremes on both sides. The truth is somewhere in-between, and consider that for mainstream products like WhatsApp or Windows or whatever, the general public never deal with actual salesmen, just word of mouth and marketing.


No, the nerds have not failed us.

The founders of WhatsApp has failed us by selling for FU money. I was happy paying them a fee in the beginning.

Then authorities have failed us by aproving the merger.


Maybe they didn't fail us... Wikipedia: On February 21, 2018, Moxie Marlinspike and WhatsApp co-founder Brian Acton announced the formation of the Signal Foundation


They failed us to sell WhatsApp to FB while the networks effects are (at least in Europe) in full effect. I simply can't abandon WhatsApp due to this now.


> It's too late to go back.

It's never too late. Spread the message and show people alternatives. I do.


Agreed - it’s also a win even if you just get someone to use signal in addition to WhatsApp, as I was able to do today.

Eventually abandoning WhatsApp will slowly get easier as alternatives propagate, and using two messengers really isn’t a problem now.


Very well said.

Convenience > Privacy, which is an interesting conundrum.

This makes privacy a feature more than a USP (unique selling proposition). I predict that some "privacy" focused products and search engines will need to pivot to something more than just "we don't steal your data."


There is no more nerds' voice which matters, it is marketing for some time.


I disagree with where and how this industry failed the rest of people. I can quote you numerous "nerds", such as the esteemed (/s) Eric Emerson Schmidt that told us on a public podium that it is unreasonable to have "an expectation of privacy "(a technical legal phrase, btw) when using the internet. So let's not blame this on the "smart phone" and usability.

In the late 80s and 90s, we had influential technologists that sold what became the Panopticon as a liberating force that would unleash creativity and usher in a new era of freedom. Most now work for one of the FANGs. The rest made a face saving effort via EFF.

> If privacy was high-value, any privacy-conscious competitor would've taken the market by storm.

Which VCs would fund them? VCs, even our gracious hosts YCombinator, are gate keepers of who & what gets funding.

Has YCombinator, with genuine educated and well informed geeks at the helm, ever supported a decentralized proposal?

Consumers can only choose from what is on the menu.

And "privacy conscious" competitors were not on the menu. Or maybe I did miss these. This is possible, so can you point out which VC funded "privacy conscious" startups failed against competing venture funded centralized systems?

To this day, non-geeks are not aware that it is possible for them to have their social apps while insuring their privacy.


I'm in Brazil as well.

Everybody uses Whatsapp. It is now so entrenched into society that it turned to be part of its popular culture. When people say "I'm part of a group of old car enthusiasts", they meant they are part of a Whatsapp group in which they discuss old cars.

Countless online services and apps were replaced by Whatsapp over the years, from the top of my head: all IMs, customer service apps, e-commerce (specially for SMBs), email and collaboration in general. I can't remember the last time I received a proposal or contract to be signed outside Whatsapp. My attorney asks me to send him all sorts of documentation, copies of IDs and legal evidence via Whatsapp because email is not as easy to use as the IM.

Well, it's lunch time. I got to order my Burguer King meal via their Whatsapp order taking bot. How convenient.


WhatsApp reigns supreme in India as well; we now have characters in TV shows and movies saying lines like, "I will WhatsApp you the details." WhatsApp might be Zuck's most significant purchase for global domination (at least for now).


Exactly. Facebook and WhatsApp likely have very little to worry about. Zuck knows that most users will keep using WhatsApp. However it does show that Facebook is not doing so well. The fact they need WhatsApp user data indicates problems in their "core" product.


Here in The Netherlands, we say "I will app you the details". In certain sentences, it does get a bit confusing.


I'm having a hard time understanding how WhatsApp could be convenient enough to replace most online services and apps. Do you send text messages with some magic keywords to order at Burger King, or is there a person on the other end reading it, or how does that work? How do you pay? How do you browse the menu? I don't understand.


In Central America whatsapp also _is_ basically the Internet along with facebook. There is a person on the other end taking your order and payments are always done in cash, although some advanced delivery drivers now carry a credit card swipe machine. Everything is done through whatsapp: bills, ordering food, govt services, parent teacher communications for children in schools, business introductions (dont know anyone who uses email for this over there). The Internet is whatsapp for these people, there is no such thing as "most online services and apps"


Thank you all for shining a light on this. I didn't know this was so bad. I'm simply annoyed that some social groups use Facebook to organize, our neighborhood group, the parenting class, so I just can't be a part of that and try to move individual people, like my immediate neighbors, onto other platforms. But "bills, ordering food, govt services, parent teacher communications", that's extreme.

At least for bills and govt services I wonder, who approves something like that?


> parent teacher communications

Where we are (EU) schools have been told not to touch WhatsApp, so official school-parent communication goes via other channels.

However parents still end up creating WhatsApp groups for each class to exchange messages and chase lost bits of homework and so on.

Feels like it's almost like like a virus ... <sigh>


> parent teacher communications

Yes, that one is another good example.

My kids' school has 3 different learning management systems (not integrated, BTW) to which students need to submit their homework/assignments. Well, at least in theory.

In practice, parents take photos of homework and send them to teachers via Whatsapp completely ignoring a formal system maintained for that purpose. Poor teachers have to save the time to upload files from their phones/computers to the system later and keep things organized from school's internal perspective.

I thought about proposing to school's IT that they changed the process, allowing parents to email files to a certain inbox, which an app would collect the files later and push them into the system automatically. I ended up not going ahead with the proposal because I already knew their reaction to me: "Whatsapp makes the process simpler".


I've worked in technical support in Central America and there's something I noticed with some users. Like those younger than 25 y/o users or older than 65 y/o.

For them, their phone is their first computer and they never really used e-mail.

Some of them can't recall their e-mail addresses or less their e-mail passwords.

This happens even if Android is the most popular phone and requires a GMail account to be properly set up.

They just create a new GMail account when they get a new phone or somtimes just keep using the GMail account from the previous owner instead.


> "whatsapp also _is_ basically the Internet"

this is the best description I've read so far.


So bots exist or no?

Honestly in that rare instance sheds you need to chat with an Intercom website, would much rather do it in WhatsAppWeb or via cell


As an end user I keep WhatsApp open on my computer, because it makes it very easy to copy and paste text, screenshots or files.

From the business side.

Big companies use bots and ticketing systems based on the WhatsApp API.

Smaller stores can handle with WhatsApp for phone or Web.


It works similar to talking to a robot via voice call. When you start the chat with the bot it will answer with a standard message saying things like "Hi, welcome to XXX" and present you with a fixed menu of options like "type 1 to create a new order" or "type 2 to inquire about an existing order" and so on. At certain points the chat may be transferred to a human.

Some places might also try to use a more clever bot where you write down what you want and the bot gives a canned response if it thinks it understands what you meant (often just looking at keywords). These can be frustrating to use, just like those voice call bots that use voice recognition.


Don't know if they have a video example or something, but:

https://www.ordering.co/whatsapp-ordering

EDIT: They do have an example that you can try out, around the middle of the page



> Well, I don't know where parent is located, but here in Brazil they are pretty much right. Everybody has WhatsApp...

In my circles WhatsApp usage was pervasive and I was one of those who really pushed for it.

Soon after it became obvious that Facebook was still Facebook even with WhatsApp on board we started pushing for Telegram (remember this was probably before Signal existed in its current form and long before Matrix became mainstream.)

It took two years or so calendar time, a few hours work I think - mostly advocacy - and included moving people from early teenage to late eighties, but was mostly painless and definitely worth it because of usability alone, even if the most important point was to keep our social graps out of the hands of future Cambridge Analyticas and whoever else Facebook wants to sell it to. (And I've hopefully learned not to underestimate grannies..!)

Today I'd probably pushed for Matrix, but as mentioned above that was not an option then.

Signal is also really nice despite one or a few big security problems (remotely exploit in the desktop client being the big one for me). Also it is US centric with all the problems that comes with it, it prioritizes security above everything and UX actually suffers from it and it isn¨t open, so as far as I can see we are locked in should they turn bad.


Whole Central and South America is like this actually. I have travelled to many countries. Often this is the only way to get a hospital appointment, and I prioritize my health over privacy from Facebook.


this single post would be grounds for nationalization/breakup/conversion to utility status for me. i wouldn't believe this if there weren't so many of you saying the same thing here. it's unthinkable for me to send any kind of confidential information via whatsapp.


WhatsApp chats are advertised as End to End Encrypted. But the app has a chat backup feature that is (or used to be) in plain text.


> What's more, several cell phone operators' plans include unlimited WhatsApp, but only a few GB of other data... meaning when your data limits are reached you can still use WhatsApp for the rest of the month, but not i.e. Signal or Telegram. That makes is rather hard to convince people to switch.

isn't this illegal? Portugal had such a problem, but i don't think anything happened since this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15905843


Wikipedia says net neutrality is enforced in Brazil, so it should be illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality_by_country#Braz...


It's zero-rating, which is a loophole to go around most net neutrality laws. Governments would have to patch that loophole or enforce a stricter interpretation of net neutrality laws, but then everybody would hate them because they'd be banning free stuff.


what do you mean by zero-rating?


This is also the case in Peru and Colombia.


WhatApp is so prevalent in El Salvador that it would be very inconvenient not to use it. It's by far the preferred communciation service.

It's also the cheapest. Because its free with WiFi, and cost less than US$1.00 per day with a data plan. Compare that to phone calls that cost about US$ 0.15 per minute or SMS that cost US$ 0.06. It may not seem much, but when you factor the local minimum wage in urban areas: $1.87/hour or US$ 0.03/minute the difference becomes significant.

Perhaps the closest alternative here would be Telegram. It has niche users like government, NGOs, political organizations and group chats for people with similar interests (like Facebook groups are used in some countries).

I guess, WhatsApp has become like our tropicalized version of WeChat.

Its used to chat with friends, family, group chats (leaving a group chat unannounced is a big faux pas). Almost every class gets a WhatsApp group for coordinating coursework.

Most stores and restaurants, big and small, accept orders via Whatsapp and that way one can avoid the third party app delivery fees. It is also used to send bank transfer confirmations, and gps location pins to coordinate deliveries because our addressing system is not that good.

I even did most my last loan application via WhatsApp. And also discovered last year that the only way to contact one bank about an ACH transfer was via WhatsApp or by visiting a branch.

So basically, it's the most used and most affordable main way to reliably reach anyone or any company. From the largest bank, to the smallest mom and pop store. From my company's founder to the newest intern.

The only thing I still get by plain SMS is multi factor authentication tokens or the ocassional spam message.


Also in Israel. I've tried to avoid WhatsApp for long long time (I'm Facebook free since 2010 or so).

Being a parent, WhatsApp is the norm. And it's pretty impossible to change the entire society. so sadly for anything about my kids I use WhatsApp.


In my country, WhatsApp, Facebook and Youtube are not free, but are a lot cheaper than general data packages. Which means we must organize even harder to get rid of these non-internet-neutrality believing companies.


When we went to Italy a few years ago it was a similar situation. You didn't have to use WhatsApp but it was far easier to get a taxi. Any driver who you didn't hail via WhatsApp would suggest you message then directly via WhatsApp for future rides.


> when your data limits are reached you can still use WhatsApp for the rest of the month, but not i.e. Signal or Telegram. That makes is rather hard to convince people to switch.

Is it common for people to reach their limits? I understand it may happen by accident when you turn off wifi then forget to re-enable, but normally one takes care of their data quota or their plans and usage is such that they never or rarely use it completely, right?

I imagine one also has the option in both prepaid and postpaid plans to get more data for the rest of the month if it ever happens that they need more. It'd just be more expensive since it's out of package.


When I had limited plans I burned through it every month and had to live at the dialup level speeds the phone companies gave you once you used up all your LTE data. Usually it was because I had to do more driving that month than normal so I'd eat up more data streaming podcasts/music. Always kept an eye on how much data I had left, but used it all anyway.

At least now I have unlimited data via a prepaid plan so I can freely tether when cable internet goes down weekly.


The reason I originally signed-up to WhatsApp was because of spending more and more time in Brazil and realising how ingrained in society it is. Even though a lot of my friends and family there have iPhones, none use iMessage.


iMessage is just too risky.

Reason is that it is also an interface for SMS, and SMS in Brazil is obscenely crazy expensive, some operators might charge 1 BRL per message or stuff like that (for context: 1 BRL is the price of a cup of coffee or of a bottle of water), using iMessage and having it to switch to SMS without you noticing can rack bills that are easily bigger than your wages.


It's not only expensive, SMS is dangerous too! There is huge amount of fraud around SMS and the “SIM swap” technique to clone credit cards and cause all kinds of havoc, some of them with the participation of corrupted employees from telecom companies.


There’s a toggle to disable send as sms in the settings.

Of course not everyone knows that and it isn’t the default so I can see how this is a deterrent in practice.


You're right, I must have activated that toggle years ago and forgotten about it. Yes the SMS fallback could be painful if you're not paying attention.


> Well, I don't know where parent is located, but here in Brazil they are pretty much right. Everybody has WhatsApp... it's assumed that if you have a phone you have WhatsApp. A

Pretty much correct in some countries.

My family (not in Brazil, but also not in the same country as me) all have Whatsapp. So I have it to keep in contact with them. They have it because everyone there has it. It's circular, it's the "network effect" but it's true. I can't entirely switch unless they switch too, and they can't switch unless their friends and co-workers switch. etc.


“I already recently lost them once when I switched from Android to iOS”

I have used drfone software on computer (mac) to transfer whatsapp data from android to iphone. It is a solid software with clear instructions.


> [Edit] When I delete my account I'm going to lose old conversations, but that doesn't bother me anymore because I already recently lost them once when I switched from Android to iOS... WhatsApp has no way of keeping your history in that case. And otherwise there's really no friction to deleting an account, since you can always recreate it.

There are several third-party tools that allow to convert the history from Android to iOS. I recently switched and was able to keep all of my history.


Mind naming the one you used? We'll have a spare iPhone soon when my wife upgrades and it might be time for me to go back to iOS after many years. I'm just a bit worried about some apps and things that might be harder to migrate like this.


Brazilian here confirming everything you've said. I have about 15 people that I chat in a daily basis, no way I can convince them to switch.


> When I delete my account I'm going to lose old conversations, but that doesn't bother me anymore because I already recently lost them once when I switched from Android to iOS... WhatsApp has no way of keeping your history in that case.

This is a huge issue which I've had to come to grips with as well. I use both Telegram and WhatsApp (among other things) and I can't believe WhatsApp and Messenger, despite being supported by a FAANG such as FB, fall short on features - including the one you mentioned - whereas Telegram, a much smaller firm has been able to constantly provide useful features at a reasonable rate (not so fast and not so slow, so that users have time to adapt to changes).

Right now I cannot use Telegram that much because my network is all on WhatsApp and Messenger, but I do miss the good features such as being able to transfer all chats to other devices and use a desktop client without having to authorize it every single time (WhatsApp sucks at this...), literally send/receive any file format and being able to send messages to yourself - which acted as a private __cloud__. I think the fact that Telegram is moving towards ads could actually be a good signal that their main revenue is going to depend on ads, and not so much on selling users' data, but we shall see.


> I can't believe WhatsApp and Messenger, despite being supported by a FAANG such as FB, fall short on features - including the one you mentioned - whereas Telegram

Messenger has that feature too. Actually for both Messenger and Telegram it's much easier to provide it, because they don't encrypt the message, they just store them unencrypted. So they don't have anything special to do to give access to them from any device.


Sounds like a replacement for SMS is needed ASAP. We should not be relying on tech giants for something as critical as messaging. SMS is provided as part of a phone plan and does not rely on any FAANGs to operate. We need an end-to-end encrypted protocol for use over the cell network that is provided by default with all cell plans.


"When I delete my account I'm going to lose old conversations, but that doesn't bother me anymore because I already recently lost them once when I switched from Android to iOS... WhatsApp has no way of keeping your history in that case." - YAP!!!! TRUE!!!!


> When I delete my account I'm going to lose old conversations, but that doesn't bother me anymore because I already recently lost them once when I switched from Android to iOS... WhatsApp has no way of keeping your history in that case.

You can keep the unencrypted DB files.


Indonesia is almost like that as well. Whatsapp has replaced SMS almost everywhere.


Same in India. It is indeed a critical social infrastructure here, if one is "texting" someone it is inherently assumed it would be through WhatsApp. And yes, schools, offices and even the Police use it too.


> When I delete my account I'm going to lose old conversations

I've deleted my account twice and each time I exported all my data to HTML (without uploading to Google). It's possible.


Actually I think the EU recently passed a law that bans not counting data use toward specific domains to allow competition. It makes much sense with your comment.


In Brazil, even telehealth appointments are often done via Whatsapp these days. It really is everywhere.


Also missing a "I'm not switching because I've never needed to use WhatsApp" option. My social circle has been on Signal for years and WhatsApp never caught on.


[flagged]


I wouldn't say we're using a WhatsApp alternative, I'd say we never bothered switching to a Signal alternative (which still seems like useful information to someone looking to switch away from WhatsApp).

Sorry that I seem to offended you. That certainly wasn't my intent.


I find it interesting to that people don't use WhatsApp at all. Many posts here are claiming not using WhatsApp is impossible. Grandparent's experience demonstrate that it is.


It depends on the country you're in and what country your extended family is in. Whatsapp absolutely dominates in South Asia and South America. You can see a full map here: https://www.messengerpeople.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/s...

Most Americans, for example, have no need for it. I feel like iMessage is the dominant messaging platform in the U.S.


That's an unbelievably poorly colored map -- 3 subtly different shades of green, 3 subtly different shades of blue. It's almost as though a colorblind designer set out to make everyone else suffer.


iMessage is iOS right? because the link you post shows facebook messenger is strongest in the US.


> "Based on Google Play Store rank"

That diagram is for Android only, so I wouldn't read too much into it.


This heavily depends on country of residence. While I had been living in Serbia, there was one king - Viber. I've heard of WhatsApp back then but didn't know a single person using it. In Germany it's vice versa - the king is WhatsApp, nobody heard of Viber.


It's not that surprising. If you live in the US and don't need to text people in other countries, you probably can avoid WhatsApp pretty easily, but it's pretty much the defacto option for texting non-US family and friends, and in many countries it's the predominant form of mass communication.


I communicate with a number of non-US folks routinely, and have still never needed WhatsApp. They're all in Europe though, so perhaps that's why.


Whatsapp is king in most of Europe


UK here, have never and will never use any fcbook property and didn't use Whatsapp before then. For me it's Signal, Matrix or folk can SMS me to give up their privacy without pushing me into using other services to do so.


That's a choice you can make. I have relatives that I would be cutting off if I do that.


I'm 41 and I have heard of whatsapp but I have never used it. Never heard of anyone else (that I know) using it. just anecdata for you.

Edit: US - sorry I was just catching up on the rest of this giant thread and it looks like SE Asia S America are the main usage places.


Add Western Europe, Turkey, the Middle East, Africa and India to that list. Heck, OPEC negotiates deals over WhatsApp.


Where do you live, not much data without that as a minimum.


I have a dedicated device for wechat. I recently put whatsapp on it (with a burner phone number) because my parents refuse to use anything else and would attempt to reach me via nearby people who happen to have whatsapp. I will likely remove it again rather when it forces me to "consent" to data sharing. I am extremely uncomfortable with whatsapp, much more so than wechat even.


Canada here, have used WhatsApp perhaps 5 times, all just to communicate with small teams at events. Always uninstalled it right after and honestly have never A. missed it, or B. been asked why I'm not using it.


Last I checked, my phone and my computer do not require me to use only messaging app.

WhatsApp is "critical" now only now due to its network effects, but you can transition away to something else.

Right now I have maybe a dozen friends and family members on my matrix server. I helped them set up the app, configured their communick accounts, made a few video calls to ensure it was working, etc. Current step is to help my wife to do the same with her friends. Slowly but steadily, we are moving our communication network away from WhatsApp and into Matrix.

Each one that we move makes WhatsApp less "critical" and makes us more free from monopolistic assholes. We don't need the Government to control any of that, in fact I believe that waiting for the government to do anything is not going to achieve anything.


Nobody is going to get their whole family circle to move to Matrix.


Not with that attitude, you won't. ;)

Seriously, though. See my other responses. Switching does not need to be an atomic operation, also learn about Matrix bridges.


One issue is the fractured nature of alternatives would mean limited network effects, if one group moves to Matrix, and another to Signal, and another to Telegram, that means juggling multiple alternatives depending on the groups one is part of.


While less than ideal, even in that case Matrix has an advantage: bridges. Matrix servers can be setup with bridges to allow communication with other protocols, so matrix users can reach telegram or signal contacts without switching clients.


I quit WhatsApp, Facebook et al and went with Signal. Initially it was hard converting people to a privacy oriented service, but today I have an endless list of open chats in Signal.


Consider Jami - https://jami.net/ - instead of Signal.


Jami seems like a very neat idea, but I've encountered numerous crashes and issues with it.

It was also pretty easy to get my family using Signal because it uses your existing address book. The need to send a Jami address is a huge hurdle for the non-technical.


This!

We have to switch to decentralized open source solutions. I have tested Jami and the video conferencing functionality works great on Android.


Same scenario here.


There is a middle ground between taking your ball and going home and playing by the new rules without complaint.

Adding another app — my vote goes to Signal - and making a lot of noise on WhatsApp is one option. If I recall correctly, WhatsApp has statuses. Changing yours to “Keeping WhatsApp for business transactions only — find me on Signal for private chat” is one idea. The people on this board have the power to move their friends away from terrible software. Use it.


Regardless of your opinion of this comment, it's still worthwhile to have the option of "staying with WhatsApp" in the poll.


The link is titled "Switching from WhatsApp".

If you're not interested in switching, then this thread is not for you. A Hacker News poll is not scientific research.


The question is "To which app are you going to switch?", not "What are you using?"

It may take a long time and huge effort to switch, but people are starting to do it.


> The question is "To which app are you going to switch?"

And a reasonable answer is "your assumption is wrong, I don't plan to switch at all". I have no doubt that some people will switch, what I'd like to know if that movement is niche or mainstream.


Then this question is not for you. People who want to switch decided to find out which option is supported by the community more. No one is interested how many people stay on Whatsapp (I know that it's a lot).


I'm interested in how many stay on WhatsApp. If 1000, in the poll are moving to Telegram, but 10,000 are staying on WhatsApp that changes the complexion of the result considerably.

But then I'm off the opinion petitions should collect both for-and-against responses; government petitions should be required to do so.


No.

I'm sorry, but that is a different question, and you're welcome to ask it. This type of thing is a bloody epidemic on the internet, where people will ask a question; "Do I use Atom or VS Code?" and millions of idiots will pile on saying "Just use Emacs". Aaargh! Just stick to the confines of the question! Too many discussions have gotten derailed on stack exchange, reddit, microsoft answers...nowhere is safe.

These kinds of sermonising replies would still be OK if the author first spent some time answering the question on its own merit and then talked about alternatives. Otherwise, it's preachy and irritating.


And an answer to that is maybe youre not the intended target of this poll. If the op is looking for alternatives, that's not a very useful option


Yes, the second paragraph in the parent comment is a distraction from the valid point.


> Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company.

If I choose to stop using my ISP, I have no need to "go offline". I can simply switch ISPs and I still get the exact same internet. This is why we must not fall for this "critical social infrastructure" trap. No one company deserves our business. We can and should go elsewhere.

Messaging should be like the internet. If I don't like my messaging provider, I should be able to switch and still message everybody. Ideally, I would be able to bring my identifier with me. Luckily, SMS already provides this. I therefore recommend old-fashioned SMS/MMS for messaging. If you want something more "modern", I would recommend Matrix, as it is the only "modern" messaging system that wants to allow people to switch providers while still messaging the same people.


> Matrix ... the only "modern" messaging system that wants to allow people to switch providers while still messaging the same people.

But does it really do so in practice? If I'm using Element/Matrix and a colleague is using WhatsApp, or Signal, or Telegram, or Briar. Can they reliably send me messages? Can I reliably send them messages?

I've been told it's possible, but more than one person I know has tried and failed. Is it common? Reliable? Possible?

Or theoretical, and unachievable in practice?

Have you done it?


> But does it really do so in practice? If I'm using Element/Matrix and a colleague is using WhatsApp, or Signal, or Telegram, or Briar. Can they reliably send me messages? Can I reliably send them messages?

Matrix is not the provider. Matrix is the protocol/idea. Element is both an app and a service.

What is common, reliable, and achievable in practice: I decide I no longer like New Vector (who run the matrix.org home server). I switch to Purism's matrix server. I no longer am doing business with New Vector, yet I can still chat with everybody that is using New Vector's matrix service.


But you're still only talking about apps that run on top of Matrix ... your initial comment made it sound like it was possible to interact with people on WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc.

I know that Matrix isn't the provider, that's why I mentioned Element/Matrix. I know that you can communicate between services that are all running on top of Matrix. That's why I specifically asked about other services. As I say, your comment seemed to imply it was possible, but most of the information I have suggests it isn't.


Matrix does have a feature called Bridges which would allow you to talk to someone on WhatsApp, Telegram, iMessage, etc. through your Matrix client. However, I suspect that they have some reliability issues.

https://matrix.org/bridges/


> I suspect that they have some reliability issues.

I've heard that they are sufficiently unreliable as to be unusable, that was was some time ago, and things may have changed.


Anecdote: I've been running my own Matrix bridges for WhatsApp and Signal (for my personal accounts) and they've been nothing but rock solid. Caveat being that with the pandemic I've exclusively used them at home, they're hosted on private infrastructure. It was a bit of a thing to set up, not being familiar with Matrix at all before, but now it's a docker-compose file.

To be clear, I send messages from my Matrix client to my Matrix server, software running on that server bridges it to WhatsApp/Signal as appropriate, same for incoming messages. Photos work as well.

I think WhatsApp relies on a data connection to your phone, and the bridge will disconnect whenever that drops. Having set this all up, I'm a pretty big convert to Matrix - just need to get the world on board. I'd love to have an SMS bridge as well, see how far I can go.


Do you have an article or the code somewhere for all this? I'd like to try setting it up as well.


I haven't written anything up anywhere, but I have a rough outline of it - I can pull it together today and see if it's consumable by others. If you're at all familiar with the tools, they're deployed in their most vanilla capacities. The grief for me was the tiny amount of configuration each piece needed to fit with everything else. Components: postgres, Synapse (Matrix server), Signald (Signal client daemon), mautrix-signal (Signal-Matrix bridge), mautrix-whatsapp (WhatsApp-Matrix bridge), Element (Matrix client)


> I can pull it together today and see if it's consumable by others.

That would be great since I have no idea at all.


I didn't get around to actually doing something nice, but rather than leave things hanging I dumped my docker-compose file + some notes (that might be mostly useless) here: https://controlc.com/fbe73ad3. When I move it to a different machine, as this was originally just out of curiosity until it worked so well, I'll make sure to write something more usable up.

It's been ~6 weeks since I set it up and it's been working since the first time without any modifications, so I honestly forget some of what I did. The general flow is: configure the bridges (config.yaml), integrate them with Synapse (registration.yaml), add your Matrix user, then configure the bridge users.


> As I say, your comment seemed to imply it was possible,

After re-reading my comment, I can see how one would think that. I apologize for the confusion. I was actually trying to draw a distinction be between messaging systems that are provider agnostic and those that aren't. SMS and Matrix both allow multiple competing providers to interoperate. WhatsApp does not. That is why, I believe that we must not consider Whatsapp "critical infrastructure". No one company should be "critical".


> I can simply switch ISPs and I still get the exact same internet. This is why we must not fall for this "critical social infrastructure" trap. No one company deserves our business. We can and should go elsewhere.

I don't think you realize it's basically a privilege to be able to change your ISP. I have two options and have switched last month - it took three months of figuring out who should fix broken fiber (look at me, I have FTTH, another privilege).

so if you say you can 'simply switch' your ISP, you're in a lucky place.


But, when I do switch ISPs I still get the exact same internet. When I switch phone carriers, I can still use SMS to message anybody who uses SMS.

When I switch from WhatsApp to GroupMe, I have an entirely different set of conversations. They are totally separate systems.

Also, if you were willing to switch to a satellite or LTE carrier, would you be able to switch? If you did switch, you still have "the internet".


At this point the game has changed with social apps; I’m including messaging as “social.” It is easier than ever to rebuild the important parts of your social graph on Signal, Clubhouse, Snap, IG, whatever platform you need. I talk to the same friends via Twitter DM, WhatsApp, IG, signal, hangouts and iMessage. Open access to contact books and APIs have made this so easy. I can leave WhatsApp and my network will find me elsewhere.


I don't think this is true. Sure, you can maybe get your close friends or close family to switch. But I don't think my landlord or my distant relatives will install Signal just because I don't want to use WhatsApp anymore.


What about SMS? It's free for most plans.


SMS/MMS don't work or are unreliable for international communication. SMS/MMS, historically, have been unreliable cross-carrier domestically in the US. Many cheaper Android phones, especially, seemed to be particularly poor players with SMS/MMS group chats. SMS/MMS doesn't guarantee message delivery order (which can lead to some comical exchanges when the first split of the message shows up a day after the last split, but also obnoxious). MMS, depending on phone, isn't particularly useful for a lot of multimedia or mixed content messages (not just text or simple and small images).

WhatsApp is free on carriers in many countries (including large portions of Asia and South America), contrasting with other messaging platforms which use a standard data plan. It delivers messages reliably, group messages just work, and it works properly for mixed content messages. And data is (relatively) cheap in most countries where WhatsApp isn't free.


Got it, it's interesting you say that as EU SMS/MMS works a treat and there's the added bonus of low or no roaming charges these days.


That is really location dependent.


That doesn't apply to me or anyone I know. I know a handful on signal and telegram but the vast majority are on WhatsApp with a smaller number on messenger.

People can contact me on signal but I mostly use WhatsApp for group chats and I'm not so important that everyone will install a newaapp just to include me in a group chat.


I used to have the same thinking, lurked on Signal for a while, then suddenly all my contacts started to show up.

Even my 14 year old got all her friends on Signal (without my direct influence) because they are very aware of instagram/FB addiction and want to stay away from it.


Impressive. I have a lot more on telegram but have yet to have a group chat on either platform.


Same.


Signal now supports group chats as well, thought it looks like all participants have to be using Signal otherwise it uses regular MMS and the "group" dynamic breaks down.


I know that it supports group chats, but the whole group would have to switch to it. That might happen with one such group in the next few days as we've had a long discussion. 1 member of the 15 in the group has now installed signal. 2 of us were already on signal.

That still leaves 12 more to switch but it could happen.


Right, exactly, I have to use WhatsApp because it's what everyone else uses, so leaving isn't even an option.


I had to use Myspace, MSN Messenger and Google Chat, because all my friends were there, too.


I feel ya, deleting whatsapp will not be great for my social life. Neither was deleting facebook, at least at the time when it was still being used. Whatsapp has inserted itself into the social fabric as a benevolent offering and now that we are all locked in we get what we payed for.

But that is all the more reason to get rid of it. Of course this makes life complicated. But if we don't make these hard choices and 'sacrifices', it will never stop. They will keep eroding away at our privacy and freedom. It will only become harder the longer we wait.

This kind of things will keep happening though as long as we allow monopolies and closed platforms. We should really be more careful with accepting these companies into our lives.


As someone who's never used such a service, help me understand what's so critical about it. Can't people just send SMS? Aren't people on fb anyway, which can be accessed with a container on Firefox?

EDIT: got some answers re SMS. Fine, though that doesn't explain why there is so much overlap/redundancy with social media applications. At a glance, it appears I could do the very same things (groups, multimedia) messaging people on facebook without having to install an app, and if people are on whatsapp they're almost 100% on facebook.

Apparently the "critical" nature of this is the facility of sending high rates of pictures and videos to others. I suspect mere FOMO owing to group-chat being localized there is enough to keep some people from cutting the cord, not the ability to communicate to multiple people in itself. People really are addicted to each other.


WhatsApp allows Group Conversations and Sharing Media (Pictures, Videos, Files, Audio Files, GPS Location, Video Calls). SMS and MMS can not cope with that in large quantity like 100mbs of video files and hundred of pictures, because data is cheaper than MMS costs.

This Privacy policy change whill allow Facebook, who bought WhatsApp, to extract all these data for their own purpose, before it was not the case.


Can't all this be done on facebook?


You used to be able to use WhatsApp and not have a Facebook account (for the obvious reasons).


that's the point - it isn't facebook, except it is.


Can't use SMS/MMS with people internationally who do not have an international mobile plan. If they also do not have a <insert other mutual account> then WhatsApp is the next option short of email.


Concerning sms in many of the countries worldwide sms is not free/unlimited as the case in the us you only get a specific amount in your plan with extremely late/unreliable delivery so it's basically unusable for chat where I'm from and only works in the case of ads and credit card transaction notifications.

whatsapp also had the advantage of being simple to use requiring only your phone number and it worked on pretty much any phone you had from symbian feature phones to the latest iphone helping it to gain widespread traction among people.


Sharing WhatsApp numbers is quick an can be done with everyone. It doesn't require your real name and doesn't share your list of friends by default.

It means I can freely share my WhatsApp number with my bank, my boss, the delivery person, the plumber, the clerk from the nearby cafeteria, clients, the driver of the tow truck, or my teachers, anyone.

But there is no way I'll share my Facebook or Intagram name/id with themn. That's more private and usually only done for friends or acquaintances.


Unfortunately, people in Brazil don't want to use SMS anymore. They replaced it by WhatsApp because well, they can show their happy life in Stories, see if someone is online, if they saw the message or are answering it... Really bad


People use whatsapp groups a lot. Also sharing images doesn't work well with SMS.


All we can do is try.

If we do nothing then the problem only gets worse.

I considered just accepting it and moving on, but I've thought again and I'm trying to get as many contacts onto Signal as I can.

At least there will be another option and as much as I love matrix I think Signal is the best balance between user friendliness and privacy.

I made the mistake before of giving multiple options which just scares non-tech people off, so now I'm just pushing Signal.


I agree, all my friends and familly are on WhatsApp and they will definitely not switch. So from my point of view, I have to balance the cost between sharing data to Facebook and severely hampering communications with my love ones.

I guess what I'm saying is that the network effect is just too damn strong (for me at least).


> they will definitely not switch.

How do you know? Have you asked them?

Many of my family and close friends did install a new messaging app when I asked them. How do you think WhatsApp became so popular in the first place?


Can I help you to at least try it?

Take a look at https://communick.com. You can sign up for a 14-day trial and get to invite 10 people to your plan.


"Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with yout ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company."

Hopefully the reason this is at the top is not this sentence.

This hallucinatory idea is exactly what Facebook PR, a.k.a. "damage control", wants people to believe.

You have no contract with Facebook. You pay them nothing. There is no legal recourse whatsoever. You cannot enforce "your end of the bargain" because Facebook undertakes no obligations to you.

Say what you want about the quality of your internet or cellular provider's service, etc., or how much you hate a company, but the fact is they have to fulfill their contractual obligations and provide service, they cannot just do whatever they want, whenever they want, as Facebook can.

If the internet/cellular provider does not deliver, then there is no Facebook. Whereas Facebook could disappear if their advertisers stop paying and the internet would still be here, because people would still be paying for internet access, and internet users would still use the internet to do all the same things they do now, and more.

Practically speaking, you may treat a tech company like a common carrier, like a telephone/internet/cellular provider. After all to the user it may seem no different. It is accessed through a "phone" and it seems to work like the service they pay for through an ISP or cellular provider.

But the minute you say this is like a "contract" you are submitting to pure delusion. You have no contract with Facebook as a user and you pay nothing. You're a product not a customer. Facebook has essentially zero exposure to liability from user complaints and that is why you are reading so many complaints about them, e.g., on HN. The best a user can do is rant into the aether and pound sand. There is no contract to enforce!

Then there is the absurdity of pretending that access to one company's computers is equivalent to access to the entire internet. This is like saying cancelling your subscription to AOL is like cancelling your account with your ISP. Today, no one is naive enough to equate AOL with the internet, as people once did. But Facebook believes people are naive enough to equate "Facebook" with "the internet". No doubt the AOL phenomena is a running joke at Facebook. The more things "change" the more they stay the same.

Do whatever you want, but let's refrain from propagating illusions that tech companies want people to believe.


Given how integrated Whatsapp is in many non-US markets, their statement is spot on. It has nothing to do with propagating the lies of a tech company. It's about being stuck in a society that has moved to a single platform because it made itself available as the easiest method long before facebook bought it up.

See Also: Weechat in china, LINE in Japan.

Living in the US I considering myself lucky that I'm not locked into a singular platform for communcation, payments, services, etc like many others.


That’s not a good comparison. There are many alternatives to WhatsApp and it’s not a „critical“ infrastructure. In contrast, you sometimes can’t choose your ISP and internet is much more critical.


It can be in area's (such as in The Netherlands) where literally _everyone_ is on WhatsApp and it is the default form of personal online communication. Not using WhatsApp means not being able to communicate with a lot of people.


Same in the UK. All my friends, family, coworkers. My boss. I've used WhatsApp instead of email to communicate with my landlord, recruiters. Some companies even use it for customer service as an alternative to phone or some terrible chat built into their website.


In the Netherlands it's so pervasive, it isn't only the default form a personal online communication anymore. Rather, it is quickly becoming the default form of online customer interaction as well.


Same with Portugal and Facebook messenger. I found a solution but it's less than ideal. I have less friends now.


I use both. I realize that Facebook already has my social graph and the epsilon more information they get from my family chats pencils out to epsilon. I use Signal when I don't want Facebook to know and monetize that knowledge.


Same in Germany. You have no chance without Whatsapp. Every birthday party, every friend circle etc. has a Whatsapp group.


Do not they have e-mail? That seems like safe default.


To most people, email is something that you use for work, or if you're over 50.


That might depend on where you live. Around here, WhatsApp definitely is "critical", in the sense that schools, sports clubs, business as well as social life seem to be built around it nowadays. :-(


Where I live, everything is based around WhatsApp. If you want to receive a package from Amazon/FedEx/DHL/UPS, etc. The shipment will only be delivered to the location you share with the courier on WhatsApp, if you're not on WhatsApp you can't even receive packages. There are so many other things like this that are happening only on WhatsApp, and if you're not on it you won't even be able to use basic services.


I can choose my ISP in the UK, but we have such brutally entrenched network effects with WhatsApp that it literally means not talking to loved ones and community groups if you quit.


Yeah, if this is a poll for which is the best service to switch to for the rare instance when you have a choice, then okay.

If this is a poll about what I intend to do? Nothing, facebook has me by the balls and will for years to come.

Maybe certain small groups or individuals will be willing to switch with me, but it's not like I'm uninstalling WhatsApp any time soon.

I'll just link my comment from the other article about the Whatsapp changes:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25672109

Plus I'm sure they've linked all the data they can in their backend already. It's hard to believe the notice we all got this morning was really going to realistically change very much of anything.


This is true in Ecuador as well. I was shocked.

This process was turbocharged by COVID19

Most unemoloyed people with no steady income turned to last-mile delivery of all kinds of random goods and services... All done via whatsapp

Its frictionless. Like a website chatbot. Except its free and you can do it on the move.

I dont think it will take off here becuase businesses here have built web infrastructure for e-commerce.

Whatsapp is to ecommerce what smartphones where to connectivity.

3rd world countries skipped fixed wires and laptops and went straight to smartphones over air

This is the same process.


I ask this as a non-Whatsapp user. I have read the comments and I understand in some countries (Brazil, Netherlands, etc.) that Whatsapp is the main tool for person to person and person to business communications. What I can't figure out is why did it displace "plain SMS" or other tools. What drove the adoption? I'd love to hear more about that - was Whatsapp just the first mover?


> What I can't figure out is why did it displace "plain SMS" or other tools.

SMS was unreliable, at least back when it was used. It was common for someone to receive it hours later or at least many minutes later, when it was too late. Informing someone you just got the message they told you about in-person a while back was a common occurrence. You also don't know when a person received your message, so you would opt to call them anyways if they take too long to reply with something even if they were just busy. Basically, the 2 checkmarks on each message is the killer feature.

Spam is also a problem with SMS.

Email is something that never really took off in mobile devices. I suppose everyone saw it as the same thing as SMS, with the same issues. Perhaps worse, since an email client needed to poll the server for new messages. SMS is something people did since before smartphones. Dumbphones didn't commonly have real support for email. Also, email on a mobile device meant you had to setup the mail client, and you didn't have to setup anything with SMS, just give people your number.


SMS: Pricy, no audio messages and no pictures/videos (also no documents).

Whatsapp: free (besides internet usage - but some providers offered unlimited/extended whatsapp data), audio messages, send photos/videos/audios (not from audio message)/documents, can do video and audio calls from the same screen, without moving away from the app

There's just no competitor with same parity of features (with the same quality) and easiness to use.

Telegram has calls, but they just don't work for me: either my parents can't hear me properly, or there's a HUGE delay in the audio call, I keep hearing the reconnection beeps...

I'm just off an audio call to my parents on Telegram, had to drop off and use whatsapp because it was unusable


Free VoIP, first and foremost.

I remember when my dad told me his cousin from Venezuela suggested an app to him that allowed him to make free calls to anyone who also has it. I told him that was probably not right and he might have downloaded malware on his Android... Turns out he was right and the app took Brazil by storm

On top of that, media, voice clips and cross-platform compatibility.


Yeah, some countries don't charge premiums for long-distance and roaming between each other, but among those that do charge such premiums, this would be another killer feature.


Price! While my current phone plan includes "unlimited text messaging" ... this wasn't always the case. And even today, if I am roaming out of region, I get charged anywhere between 10 - 45 cents per text message. All here in Canada!


I guess the question is does switching piecemeal allow for some of the benefits of switching wholesale? Especially, can I restrict which parts of my address book (and other data) get shared with WhatsApp?

Then I could communicate with people who are on another platform using that platform but keep using WhatsApp for people who haven't moved over. Hopefully over time there would be a complete migration.


Not really. These things go slow at first and then all of a sudden. I think Facebook have underestimated the resilience of their network effect to an ultimatum like this. Integrity is a force multiplier, and when you set your integrity to zero it doesn't take long before the rest of your asset is also zero. Anything times zero is zero. Even WhatsApp. How the mighty fall.


Maybe we should be closing FB accounts instead.


I understand the social lock-in factor, but there's no technological reason why people couldn't migrate to another app.

Messaging apps, for 99% of the people, are only supposed to deliver text and media from A to B. It's not hard in 2021 to develop such an app, even with E2E encryption and 2FA, even for a CS graduate. I'm appalled by the scarcity of real alternatives to WhatsApp, considering that a messaging app is a piece of software with low technological barriers.

The solution seems quite clear to me. Force messaging apps to expose a public API, so that messages can easily be delivered regardless of the client used on both ends - XMPP used to provide exactly that, but both Google and Facebook decided to use it as a starting point and then gradually deviate from it with their own closed implementations.

If one platform decides to bully its users with "let me read your messages so I can send you better ads or leave the platform", users would simply leave that platform without losing their contacts.


There's also the keep WhatsApp for legacy contacts but use Signal or some such for new ones option.

Personally I'm probably a bit odd here in that I don't mind facebook having my info. So they may show me a personalised ad - big deal.


This is much more important than personal preference. This is detrimental to the flow of information in entire countries, no kidding. Each person can contribute to end this – or not.


That's what you should bdo. If you don't like the company don't buy from them. Especially when many alternatives exist. It's just a choice to use WhatsApp not a necessity. Just remember MySpace.


I've never used WhatsApp nor have any of my friends ever mentioned it as a method they'd like to use to chat with me.

I typically send normal SMS messages.

The impression that I get is that WhatsApp is not "a thing" in the US?


Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline

The OP is literally a poll of other services. In any case, it would be to cancel with your ISP to go to another ISP.


I found out it's pretty much not so dramatic when I left FB and WA in 2017. The people I communicate with have mostly accepted also having Signal.


It's not possible to be Indian and not use WhatsApp, assuming you want to have any contact with your family and friends whatsoever.


I am forced to use the ISPs in my area due to only 1 or 2 alternatives. This is not the case with online communication.


You have to use what people you know use.

What use is switching to some messenger that no one you know uses?

Obviously you can always fall back on SMS and e-mail, probably, but that is a path to social isolation in many cases.

So, it’s not exactly the same as having two ISPs to pick from but to pretend that your choice is completely free and unconstrained is also a dangerous lie to tell yourself and others.

To solve this … well, I don’t know. Probably regulation? Benevolent tech giants that for some reason decide to push open, federated messengers?


> "Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company."

You can get a contract with a different ISP.

That's what this is about: not doing without messaging completely, but switching to a different messaging service.

My family switched to Signal, and we're quite happy there. I still have Whatsapp because the schools of my children use it.


Do people not realize they can run more than 1 messenger app at a time?


The mental overhead of switching between - and keeping track of - messaging apps shouldn't be ignored.

Speaking from experience, I have a hard time remembering which specific platform is preferred by specific contacts. It's a minor annoyance, but it's always present.

How many messenger apps do you run, and how many is too many?

For me, the limit is 2. Note that currently I am forced to keep 5 different apps to keep in touch with my contacts.


It's more like canceling your contract with your ISP, but you don't live in the US and you have options wrt to ISP and you have plenty others to choose from :)


And what about stop smartphone messenging ?


I honestly wish I understood what the big deal is. Don't give the app any permissions and you're good. All they can share then are your contacts.


Just like you didn’t give Facebook permission to track you on the web?


I mean, if that's your argument then it seems like the OP article isn't valuable news. It's a change to terms of service when you never trusted the ToS to begin with.


> All they can share then are your contacts.

Is the phone company allowed to share your contacts?


You want change but without making any effort?


what about option "don't need to switch"? because i never used whatsapp in the first place


No social media today qualify as “critical social infrastructure."


> Critical social infrastructure

At least for the UK, this is not at all the case. It’s perfectly feasible to socialise and do business without going anywhere near WhatsApp.


[UK] All the school chat for my kids, both for secondary schoolers and for us as parents, is on WhatsApp. Amongst my family WhatsApp is the primary means of group communication.


I live in the UK and this is absolutely 100% not true, you cannot function in society here without WhatsApp. In Australia the same is true for Facebook. In every country there's something, and almost all of them outside China are owned by Facebook.


I also live in the UK, but I have never used WhatsApp.

People's requirements and experiences differ greatly. WhatsApp may be essential to you, but it's not essential to everyone.


"Cannot function in society" is something of an exaggeration. I have never used WhatsApp and never really suffered for it. The only issue I noticed is needing to check in with individual members of the board game group and rock climbing group every now and then to see if there are plans.


I find this incredible to hear. I know many people who live very sociable lives who don’t have WhatsApp or Facebook. And these are not techno privacy geeks but regular people across different age groups.

I have to strongly disagree based on personal evidence that ‘you cannot function socially in society without WhatsApp’.


Same, but most of my friends and family use Facebook Messenger instead. I prefer it to WhatsApp to be honest.


Not a good comparison and quite exaggerated...


Why is this the top voted comment?

Leaving WhatsApp is nothing at all like cutting off your internet connection.

It is just one out of literally dozens of available text messaging apps, and it is owned by one of the least ethical companies that exists today.


"It is just one out of literally dozens of available text messaging apps"

It baffles me people are still saying this.

You can only message people that are using the SAME messaging app as you. I can't just up and switch apps and expect my 30+ friends and relatives and housemates and coworkers to switch with me!


> You can only message people that are using the SAME messaging app as you.

No, Matrix supports bridging with about two dozen protocols,¹ many of which support multiple clients (at least 7: IRC, RSS, Email, SMS, Mastodon, libpurple —actually a library supporting multiple protocols including IRC and XMPP— and Twitter) — some of which have dozens if not hundreds of clients.

¹IRC, Slack, RSS, Gitter, Discord, RocketChat, iMessage, Facebook Messenger, Email, SMS, Mastodon, libpurple, GroupMe, Skype, WeChat, Tox, Mumble, Twitter, Mattermost, Keybase (Edit: this one was discontinued), Google Hangouts, Telegram, WhatsApp, Instagram, and Signal — https://matrix.org/bridges/


The linked to page does not mention XMPP...


Right, it mentions libpurple (represented by the purple square https://matrix.org/bridges/#libpurple), which is a library (probably best known for use in the Pidgin frontend) that can use 10 protocols without plugins, including XMPP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin_(software)#Supported_pr...


OK. Perhaps a better way to approach the issue:

What XMPP address format can I use to talk to a Matrix user ID? ... and vice versa...


Not if you are content to send SMS/MMS messages. I text all of my friends, clients, and family networks and avoid propritary platforms and none of them have ever complained.


It's not the app or company, it's the network [of people].

You can't switch unless you can convince literally everyone you know (I'm in UK) to switch.


Its like saying: "Why you still on internet, there are dozens of BBS available"


> Because as much as I hate that Facebook bought them, they're part of what I would call "critical social infrastructure."

... is it ? I only got whatsapp last year and most of the people I know from real life aren't on it. In a big french city with a 50 thousand-students university.


Obviously this depends on your exact circumstances. You might be whole unaffected or literally everyone you know might use it. Either way, you depend on other people.

This sucks, by the way. No doubt about that. But I doubt that individuals can do anything in that regard.

Probably regulation. Or a benevolent tech company that decides to push some sort of open messenger protocol (with good enough properties) that anyone can join and where anyone can make clients for. You know, kinda like e-mail.


For some people it is yes. It varies by region though. Since not everyone is in a big French city with a fifty-thousand-student university, different messaging applications are popular in different areas.

Back in the day, all the people in the US I knew used AOL Instant Messenger, but if I wanted to talk to anyone in the UK I had to use MSN Messenger. A more modern example: If you have family in China, you have to use WeChat.


> Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company.

Not "going offline" since people are obviously looking for an alternative. More like switching your ISP because you don't like the company.


How is it possible for this answer to be first... Really HN? WhatsApp is critical infrastructure??

Excluding company ownership, what is the crucial difference between all IM listed?

There's LITTLE DIFFERENCE, they all serve the same purpose, feature parity is pretty much there.

When you add company ownership to the mix, WhatsApp is owned by fucking Facebook. Let that sear in your mind.


>Excluding company ownership, what is the crucial difference between all IM listed?

The crucial difference is that in my life everyone is on WhatsApp, and no one is on any of the other IMs. That is the difference.

And I don't use the word everyone here lightly, I mean it (99,9%) literally. My family, my parents, my friends, my colleagues, my 91 year old grandmother, my potential clients, my actual clients, the support line for the webshop I order from, the support line for my supermarket, etc... Everyone.

I can't speak for other countries, but in the Netherlands WhatsApp is undeniably a part of your social infrastructure.

It doesn't matter if any of those other IMs have feature parity, better security or stricter privacy. There's just no one to message.


This.

There is no way to socially untangle yourself from Whatsapp in the Netherlands, unless one wishes to live as the modern version of a hermit.


> I can't speak for other countries, but in the Netherlands WhatsApp is undeniably a part of your social infrastructure.

It is in Brazil too, without a shadow of a doubt.


big words, unfortunately little common sense.

I can give you some scenarios:

- Practically every school (elementary school) in Germany uses WhatsApp for communication among Parents and Teachers. If you don't have WhatsApp, you have go to the school and read the official announcements in the wall. Lot of important information there, for example Teacher short-notice absence, protocol from meetings, etc.

- The favorite communication channel of my university is via Whatsapp. There are lot of tools to consolidate and do the customer relationship via WhatsApp.

- Back in the normal days, every single airbnb host that i contacted, were using WhatsApp

So to make it clearer, the main difference between all IM listed are:

- the user base itself (two billion users for WhatsApp[1])

- The number of 3rd part tools offering integration with that tools (zendesk, salesforce, etc).

References:

[1]: https://www.messengerpeople.com/global-messenger-usage-stati...


WhatsApp serves the purpose of talking to my friends and family. Signal serves the purpose of talking to myself


Yep exactly, "critical social infrastructure" is on point. Here almost everyone is on WhatsApp and some are on messenger, meanwhile the other apps are only used by a few.

Last year I even had to register on FB to not be out of the loop concerning a sport club I got in.


I've seem this kind of reaction coming from my friends and colleagues here in US, because they are still using SMS (or Apple's Messages when they have an iPhone) for messaging. And there is rarely a thing like "I'll text that store to place an order for delivery" or many of the other uses WhatsApp get in other countries.

I wouldn't say this is on purpose but they are unaware of how WhatsApp is used everywhere else.


"WhatsApp is owned by fucking Facebook. Let that sear in your mind"

You might have good arguments for your white-hot searing hatred of this company, but I will confess, it makes your position look much worse when you represent it with hotly charged emotional statements instead of reasoning.

For example: I find it trivial to understand why someone would call a Facebook service "Critical Infrastructure", thinking about how we don't control how families and communities choose to meet up.

Your childs little league sport uses facebook, your aunt and uncles have organized the family into a whatsapp channel, your President incites riots on Twitter... we don't get to choose which networks are the critical ones, and sometimes, we make the binary choice of "Be apart of society" or "Don't".

Just my 2c, it doesn't seem that hard to understand why he would call these things critical, when you actually take a few moments to think it through honestly.


> they're part of what I would call "critical social infrastructure."

Really? That seems a depressingly low bar for what you consider "critical". If WhatsApp would disappear tomorrow, I think my social infrastructure would not suffer at all. I still have a smartphone with hundreds of other apps, including iMessage, SMS, and so on..

Besides that, I only consider real human interaction as critical.

> Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company.

Sounds kind of depressing again. Not sure where you live, but most countries in the world have more than one ISP. I have switched ISP often in my lifetime. Never was it an issue, nor a massive burden and it has not caused me to go offline at all.


Suggesting iMessage -- available only on Apple products -- as a alternative to avoid WhatsApp lock-in has to be the most ironic thing I've seen today.


Try not to get mad please, but ...

> Where is the "Don't switch" option? Because as much as I hate that Facebook bought them, they're part of what I would call "critical social infrastructure."

No such thing as "critical social infrastructure." Could you live without whatsapp? Yes. Then by definition it is not critical.

> Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company.

Not at all. Some areas in the US don't have choice of what ISP they can use, but you have many good choices for messaging apps.

I am growing tiresome of people complaining (on HN, of all places) about how evil facebook and google are but will not go as far as cancelling facebook or using duckduckgo for search, or protonmail for email.

Folks, if you are not happy, you have choices and they are free and very convenient. The services you complain about using for free are not the problem, you're just lazy.

EDIT - you folks in the replies are basically proving my point. Instead of taking ownership over the freedom of choice that you have, you would rather make excuses to justify lack of initiative. That's not a healthy or happy frame of mind to box yourself in, and it gives too much of your emotional influence to the platforms. Like you folks are seriously comparing a messaging app to ISPs and heating in london...really? Give me a break, snowflake.


Your analogies are very poor and all over the place. Can you live without electricity? Sure, if you are willing to severely decrease your quality of life.

Your ISP analogy is again flawed while the OPs' is reasonably relevant. A social communication app has a critical part to being relevant to use - the social part. It's a chicken and egg problem because if people don't use Signal or Telegram or wall, the app serves no useful purpose. The mere existence of a choice does not mean that all choices are equally useful or even relevant.

This argument of "you're lazy" is (ironically) incredibly lazy and often results in software that is unreasonably hard to use - again, an analogy that i hope folks here would understand. Whatsapp works, is simple to use and has sufficient users to be critical infrastructure. Using "laziness" is a cop out. If something isn't broken, don't fix it.


> Could you live without whatsapp? Yes. Then by definition it is not critical.

Can I live without heating in London? Yes I wouldn't die without it. But without heating it's extremely uncomfortable. I'd say it is critical for me because "dying/not dying" is not the criteria for deciding.


Have you travelled or lived in central or South America? WhatsApp is critical social infrastructure. WhatsApp is used more than telephones. For everything. Businesses advertise their WhatsApp contact before, or even omitting, a telephone number. People you meet want your WhatsApp for communication, not your telephone number. WhatsApp has become critical to these countries as the primary form of communication.




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